Garden Guardian Interview

Wed, Dec 24, 2025 Year 3, Summer 24

Kevin interviews Liam, the developer of Garden Guardian

Timings

00:00:00: Theme Tune
00:00:30: Intro
00:09:59: What Have We Been Up To
00:31:11: Kirby Airriders
01:20:31: Garden Guardian Interview
02:19:41: Outro

Links

Garden Guardian

Contact

Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot
Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/

Transcript

Theme Tune

(0s) Theme Tune:

[Music]

Intro

(30s) Kevin :

All right. Hello, everyone. Hi, listeners. This is probably already in the middle of an episode, but it’s probably going up later. So they’re not what else is on.

(40s)

But well, hello with me today. I have a very, very special guest. One Mr. Liam, I guess is okay. Say your last name because I guess, okay, Alan Miller. It is on your Twitter like handle and stuff.

(48s) Liam:

Yeah, absolutely.

(53s)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(54s) Kevin :

So okay. Well, hi. Okay. Why don’t you introduce yourself to it?

(1m 1s) Liam:

Well, thank you very, very much for having me and thank you for getting two

(1m 4s)

varies before the special guest. I really appreciate that level of

(1m 9s)

admiration. I don’t know.

(1m 10s) Kevin :

What one of those berries was for me specifically?

(1m 12s) Liam:

Very, oh, one of the, okay, fair enough. Very flattering though, but yeah,

(1m 17s)

my name’s Liam. I am currently an independent video game developer.

(1m 23s)

I suppose, but my last game was a couple of years ago.

(1m 27s)

I live in Tokyo currently with my wife.

(1m 31s)

I used to stream and podcast and do videos on the regular for many years in the past.

(1m 40s) Kevin :

Hm hm hm hm hm hm hm hm hm hm just a few.

(1m 40s) Liam:

At a couple places, super best friends play, and rising super stream being the main ones.

(1m 49s)

Yeah, that’s pretty much me now.

(1m 52s)

I guess right now I just work on games as much as I can, and I write a blog, and I occasionally

(1m 59s)

Post-Kirby Airrider.

(2m 1s)

Thank you for having me.

(2m 2s) Kevin :

[laughs]

(2m 4s)

We’ll get there, we’ll get there.

(2m 7s)

It’s so my pleasure.

(2m 9s)

So I mean, you know, that’s great intro.

(2m 12s)

I say you’re underselling yourself for folks

(2m 14s)

not familiar, super best friends as well.

(2m 18s)

I mean, I’m biased ‘cause I’ve always been a huge fan

(2m 21s)

that was quite the little channel

(2m 25s)

you guys had going there, but and perhaps more relevant

(2m 29s)

our audience. You, Jamie, great.

(2m 33s)

And that’s part of the reason I brought you on because we taught cottagecore and that’s

(2m 41s)

quadgcore enough because you’re you’re guarding plants. It’s it’s it’s maybe not full

(2m 45s)

on farming, but you’re a growing plant you’re collecting fruit. We’ll get there. But I mean, that’s

(2m 50s) Liam:

• Yeah, thank you, I appreciate it.

(2m 51s) Kevin :

that’s impressive in its own.

(2m 55s) Liam:

It was really hard.

(2m 56s)

Even though the game is so small,

(2m 59s)

it was still a lot of work.

(3m 1s)

It was my first published real game.

(3m 4s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

(3m 5s) Liam:

I’ve made little game jam things before,

(3m 8s)

but that was a lot.

(3m 9s)

I do think it’s funny,

(3m 12s)

the approximating it to cozy games

(3m 17s)

and cottage core and farming and stuff,

(3m 17s) Kevin :

Yeah. The.

(3m 19s) Liam:

because…

(3m 20s)

really, like, it’s an action game.

(3m 22s)

It is, like, totally just straight up an action game,

(3m 26s)

but it is farming themed and, like, there was a…

(3m 30s)

there was a Steam sale a little while ago

(3m 33s)

that was the, like, farming Steam sale or whatever it was.

(3m 36s) Kevin :

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah there you go

(3m 36s) Liam:

And I kind of looked both ways

(3m 38s)

and I hit the Apply button, like, “Ooh.”

(3m 40s)

And Valve accepted it, so it would…

(3m 44s)

I sold some units in the farming sale, so it, you know,

(3m 46s)

it’s adjacent.

(3m 47s)

You don’t do any…

(3m 50s)

It’s just a action game, but I’ll take what I can get

(3m 54s) Kevin :

or – well, I mean, hey, it’s 20 – 25, possibly 6 when people are listening to this.

(4m 4s)

But how did your course spaces really change, right?

(4m 7s)

Because I mean, for so long, before Stardew, really, it was all the harvest moon and

(4m 12s)

the story of Caesar, right?

(4m 14s)

And, you know, they were not – maybe not formally – but you knew what to expect, like,

(4m 18s)

it was very clear what they were doing, but – but I mean, it’s – it’s – it’s exploded

(4m 22s)

It’s so much since Stardew.

(4m 24s)

And I’d say since 2020 is COVID, it just continued to kind of mushroom.

(4m 30s) Liam:

Yeah

(4m 31s) Kevin :

How we’ve covered Picross, because Picross has done like Story of Seasons.

(4m 38s)

Okay, so we talked about that because it’s adjacent enough.

(4m 39s) Liam:

Hmm

(4m 41s)

Yeah, it’s true. It’s true what you say though before Stardew. It’s it’s challenging to think of like significant games

(4m 50s)

That are not harvest moon rune factory

(4m 54s)

Story of seasons that sort of stuff like I think the biggest one that comes to mind predating

(5m)

Stardew is probably residue, right like shop simulation

(5m 5s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like, yeah, that’s this part of the thing. Like, we see we’re starting to see that

(5m 5s) Liam:

But like yeah, yeah after Stardew changed the game

(5m 9s)

For real. Yeah

(5m 17s) Kevin :

connective tissue to other genres, right? Like, like you say you’re an action game, but I mean,

(5m 21s)

look at look at Sock enough rice and ruin that’s literally hybrid one part farming one part sick

(5m 23s) Liam:

Hmm

(5m 27s) Kevin :

character action. Um, so, you know, the lines are blurring. Um, and, and when we hear our

(5m 28s) Liam:

Uh-huh

(5m 35s) Kevin :

overseas in love, genre talking, blurring lines and not making any sense. But yeah, there’s a. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. That’s that’s oh, yeah. I mean, have you played spirit fair? Yeah, yeah, I believe so.

(5m 38s) Liam:

I feel like that’s how it is a lot now.

(5m 44s)

A lot of cozy games have different styles of gameplay, or a lot of non-farming games incorporate

(5m 51s)

farming, or that sort of stuff nowadays.

(5m 59s)

No, I haven’t– I’m by Thunder Lotus, right?

(6m 2s)

I’ve seen quite a bit of it that’s actually– I believe– made in my hometown of Montreal

(6m 9s) Kevin :

Oh

(6m 9s) Liam:

Yeah, I believe so.

(6m 11s)

They always present at our local events, so I– they best be.

(6m 15s)

I’m pretty sure they are, though.

(6m 17s)

Yeah, what a– what a cool game, and I totally get where you’re going with that, you know.

(6m 21s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I like yeah, I mean it’s not a farming game, but it has farming in it and it’s very

(6m 25s) Liam:

No.

(6m 26s)

Mm-hmm.

(6m 28s) Kevin :

Dodge core, but also that’s a lot of things

(6m 31s)

So, you know that just yeah like you said, they’re so much stuffs adding in what not

(6m 36s)

I mean hell even technically animal crossing is farming in it now

(6m 40s) Liam:

Always always been there

(6m 41s) Kevin :

I guess that’s the other big one. Yeah

(6m 43s) Liam:

Planting trees. Yeah, money trees

(6m 44s) Kevin :

Yeah, oh yeah, right fruit trees that is type farming there you go as workers you’re right

(6m 47s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah

(6m 50s)

Recently, I was playing Hades - that’s got a garden accounts, right? No, I don’t

(6m 51s) Kevin :

Well, hey, oh, dude, I’m pretty sure

(6m 59s)

Forget it. There’s a silk song episode come out. There’s people want to talk about silk song and then they’re we’re fine

(7m 5s)

One thing we love doing here is finding the the thinnest excuse to cover

(7m 9s) Liam:

It was just whatever it takes to get it on.

(7m 12s) Kevin :

Whatever it takes absolutely

(7m 12s) Liam:

On show, hmm, I like that.

(7m 15s) Kevin :

Yeah, that’s that’s how we roll here. Um, so yeah, I know but I mean

(7m 21s)

I’ve played Garden Guardian which it’s boiler for people. It’s great game. You guys check it out

(7m 26s) Liam:

Hm-hmm. Thank you.

(7m 27s) Kevin :

And it it a lot of it is something is just the vibes and it it’s still like

(7m 34s)

It’s a quick game where you have to be paying attention and you have to be responsive

(7m 39s)

But it does something about protecting your plants from bugs just feels so

(7m 46s)

It’s not just the word is tain and cozy, um, it evokes as soon

(7m 49s) Liam:

I’m not here to promote Garden Guardian, but I will, I will happily, oh, okay, good, well now I am here to promote Garden Guardian. No, but I’m certainly not here like to sell it strictly, but like, yeah, that that feeling you’re talking about like I definitely was like a goal. I actually grew up on a farm as a kid.

(7m 51s) Kevin :

we’re feeling in another game.

(8m)

I am.

(8m 19s) Liam:

My parents divorced and was young, my granddad had a farm, so whenever I was with my dad, farm life, right? And you know, one of the things that I remember was, you know, having to treat our extensive gardens and crops and also protecting our chickens, because chicken hawks would just come and just kill them, just kill them in the pen, they’d take them away, they’d eat them there.

(8m 37s) Kevin :

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

(8m 44s) Liam:

I probably should have put a warning on that but like yeah, they you know, that’s a real thing and

(8m 47s) Kevin :

[Inaudible]

(8m 49s) Liam:

And that was something I kept thinking about in Garden Guardian was the the the anger I feel towards things trying to steal the plants

(8m 58s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(8m 58s) Liam:

I’ve been working so hard on even though they’re just you know, they’re just living beings trying to get by but I still feel a certain a certain guilty

(9m 6s)

Iron where it’s like I need you out of here now permanently, but also like I get it. You don’t know any better. Anyway, um, I’m I’m glad Garden Guardian in parts some of that

(9m 11s) Kevin :

Yeah, no, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(9m 19s) Liam:

energy in practice because I was definitely thinking about that when I was making it running down to the coop when you see chicken hawks circling just so you could make a big enough

(9m 28s) Kevin :

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.

(9m 29s) Liam:

Ruckus to keep him out. Yeah, yeah

(9m 32s) Kevin :

You said, oh, oh man, I’d love you to meet, uh, Tony, one of our,

(9m 36s)

Pope Rotating co-host. She’s an entomologist and works at work.

(9m 41s)

She has plenty of analyze stories, and growing up in the American,

(9m 47s)

spending the most good portion of my life in the American South, I’ve had plenty.

(9m 51s)

You’re maybe not plenty, but a handful of wildlife encounters myself,

(9m 53s) Liam:

Mm-hmm. For sure, yeah.

(9m 55s) Kevin :

so that’s always a fun topic here.

(9m 57s)

But we’ll get to garden garden, because I want to deep dive into that.

What Have We Been Up To

(10m 2s) Kevin :

But before that, let’s talk some other fun stuff.

(10m 5s)

What have you been up to lately?

(10m 6s) Liam:

Hmm

(10m 8s) Kevin :

And when you play and watch and whatever you want to do, tell me what’s going…

(10m 10s) Liam:

Lately, uh, I have been playing a bunch of games actually. I picked up Metroid Prime for yesterday

(10m 19s) Kevin :

Well, we’re trying to just drop today like on recording. Yeah.

(10m 20s) Liam:

That just very nice

(10m 24s)

Yeah, I’ve been really really enjoying that. I’ve only played for like two three hours

(10m 30s)

But boy, it feels it feels just like Metroid. I love me love me and Metroid the

(10m 36s)

I don’t know if you’ve heard of or discussed the npc’s who chat with you who follow you around and stuff

(10m 42s) Kevin :

Oh, oh, I’ve heard of it I’ve heard

(10m 44s) Liam:

It’s it’s interesting. I definitely can’t say that I like love every line that’s been put to paper for the characters

(10m 52s) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(10m 54s) Liam:

But the vibe I get from it is like it reminds me of old action movies like aliens and stuff

(11m)

Have where you have that sort of extended cast that that’s getting picked off by the monsters kind of

(11m 1s) Kevin :

Yeah

(11m 6s)

That’s that’s what it does seem like also that like I heard that my knee-jerk reactions are the first things I heard

(11m 13s)

We’re like concerning I felt like but after hearing a bit more like the kind of the different personalities

(11m 19s)

I definitely see what you mean

(11m 21s) Liam:

Yeah, it’s I see why people felt that way and I like I totally get it

(11m 26s)

I mean, there’s always been dialogue and conversation in a lot of mature games

(11m 30s)

But usually it’s like constrained to like between moving to areas or whatever whereas like very early you meet this guy named Miles

(11m 38s)

And he’s he’s he’s chattering to you, you know, he’s he’s

(11m 42s)

Shocked that Samus is here and he doesn’t understand why he’s been brought to this place and he’s like he’s a goof

(11m 49s)

He says stuff that’s goofy.

(11m 51s)

There was one good joke where I was like, oh, that’s actually like I laughed.

(11m 55s)

I didn’t say, oh, that’s actually funny. I just laughed. I just skipped the analysis.

(11m 55s) Kevin :

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

(12m) Liam:

Um, yeah. Um, so I, I, you know, I think it’s definitely a question of execution.

(12m) Kevin :

No.

(12m 7s) Liam:

Like, cause like I said, even I don’t love every line that’s been put to paper.

(12m 11s)

So if that’s where I’m at and I like them, I definitely see why some people feel so fiery about it.

(12m 16s)

And maybe maybe a more, uh, precision engineered script could have delivered.

(12m 21s)

something that everyone would have liked, but I’m, I’m just glad that I’m playing it. And I’m like, few, this doesn’t bother me actually.

(12m 28s)

I actually am like, totally fine with this. Cause it didn’t. Yeah, didn’t love the NPCs in Metroid Prime 3 so much.

(12m 29s) Kevin :

sick that’s great

(12m 36s) Liam:

And other than that, like, when playing some other Switch 2 titles, uh, Hyrule Warriors came out recently and Kirby Air Riders, I’ve been plugging away at.

(12m 43s) Kevin :

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Before we keep, okay, we’ll get to curvy around

(12m 51s)

people know me. And so we’ll get to that. But okay. Hyrule warriors. Okay. I played the original one.

(12m 59s)

The one on that came out, we originally. And that game, that was a, that was a real treasure for me and my brother.

(13m 6s)

Like we, that was a shut off your brain grind out shit and unlock stuff.

(13m 7s) Liam:

Mmm.

(13m 11s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(13m 11s) Liam:

Mm-hmm.

(13m 13s)

A time vampire, eh?

(13m 14s) Kevin :

Yeah, he little bit, but it it was also just

(13m 15s) Liam:

It’s like, for real, my wife and I had a similar experience.

(13m 19s) Kevin :

Yeah, but I mean part of it was like

(13m 23s)

There was so much to unlock and there was a lot of love put into that game because you know there was so much

(13m 31s)

There’s just so much content all the characters at it was insane

(13m 35s)

I did play the other one the breath of the wild one

(13m 39s) Liam:

• Mm.

(13m 40s) Kevin :

But it was dance which one, so very slaggy.

(13m 43s)

And didn’t hit the same. But tell me, what are your thoughts on this?

(13m 43s) Liam:

• Oh yeah, yeah.

(13m 48s)

• Yeah, so I also love the original

(13m 51s)

and it’s expanded releases after and like you,

(13m 55s)

my wife and I played a ton of co-op.

(13m 57s)

Did you use the like cool split screen,

(14m)

not split screen, but like where one person’s on the TV,

(14m 1s) Kevin :

yeah yeah yeah we did right wow the Wii U was ahead of its time

(14m 2s) Liam:

one person’s on the game pad?

(14m 4s)

• So good.

(14m 6s)

Like both people having a full screen, stellar.

(14m 10s)

• Yeah, for real, a little kind of,

(14m 16s)

yeah, on the Switch version, you lose that.

(14m 19s)

You can only do local, which my wife and I always kind

(14m 21s) Kevin :

Yeah

(14m 21s) Liam:

of thought was a little sucky and age of calamity.

(14m 24s)

We liked it well enough, but it didn’t fully capture

(14m 29s)

the magic.

(14m 30s)

We both really liked Breath of the Wild,

(14m 31s)

so it was nice to see a little bit more of that world,

(14m 34s) Kevin :

Yeah, you’re right exactly

(14m 35s) Liam:

but it wasn’t all the way there.

(14m 40s)

Actually has more recaptured the magic.

(14m 44s)

I think I still kind of like the original better.

(14m 44s) Kevin :

Whoa! Maybe.

(14m 47s) Liam:

Maybe ‘cause it just hit us at the right time

(14m 50s)

and like it’s gonna be hard to beat that nostalgia,

(14m 52s)

but the new one is definitely, I think,

(14m 56s)

just categorically better than age of calamity.

(14m 59s)

I don’t think there’s a single thing

(15m 1s)

where I look back at age of calamity,

(15m 2s)

and I think that’s better actually.

(15m 5s)

The performance is also significantly,

(15m 9s)

a way better.

(15m 11s)

The one feature that we really, really liked at all,

(15m 13s)

like the Law, excuse me, is on Switch 2,

(15m 17s)

they have this new thing called Game Share.

(15m 19s)

You familiar with it?

(15m 19s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the DS download play of the today.

(15m 22s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, where you stream the game

(15m 26s)

to the other switches, right?

(15m 28s)

My wife and I have taken to playing

(15m 31s)

age of imprisonment in bed where I’ve got my Switch 2,

(15m 35s)

and she’s right next to me with her Switch Lite,

(15m 38s)

and we do the game share.

(15m 39s)

And it is so much better than either of us expected.

(15m 44s)

It is not flawless.

(15m 46s)

There are milliseconds of lag, but the consistency you get from a connection that’s like the devices

(15m 50s) Kevin :

Hmm. Yeah.

(15m 55s) Liam:

like basically three to three feet apart is it’s so good that that’s just how we’ve been playing

(16m 1s)

the game and so you both get a 30 FPS image and the stream receiver gets a

(16m 9s)

shockingly good version of it, we really didn’t expect that we thought it would be more compromised,

(16m 15s)

we thought it would be less consistent and indeed when we tried to play it in the living room

(16m 20s)

with the switch to docked all the way over there and her sitting on the couch, we did get drops

(16m 25s)

here and there which was like we considered like we were we just played split screen at that point

(16m 29s)

but if you’re like really sitting next to someone both playing in handheld,

(16m 30s) Kevin :

mm-hmm

(16m 33s) Liam:

damn it’s a good experience so that has really recaptured some of the magic of the original for us,

(16m 39s)

putting our own screen and having to communicate what we need the other player to do and stuff like

(16m 45s)

that we were really enjoying this one much better than the second one which we liked enough but

(16m 45s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(16m 53s) Liam:

this is this is better.

(16m 55s) Kevin :

Nintendo, capturing the magic of playing with people in person in 20, 25 when the wild gods have done.

(17m) Liam:

crazy

(17m 3s)

Crazy, yeah, yeah, best local multiplayer game and the best online one too if you

(17m 9s)

If you look to the side a little bit, yeah

(17m 11s) Kevin :

Yeah, yep. I will, um, okay, but that sounds fantastic. I’m definitely much more keen. I like,

(17m 18s)

hey, I honestly forgot, as your imprisonment came out, maybe because other stuff was coming out,

(17m 23s)

It’s been a good year for games, but.

(17m 26s)

But hearing that does does excite me because yeah, hearing it’s a little more close, it’s higher than the age of calamity. That’s that’s good stuff. Although I and I just checked to confirm I will one one ding against imprisonment. No play will has to. That’s.

(17m 36s) Liam:

Yeah definitely yeah no playable has to but I don’t know if you know like I

(17m 49s)

mean I don’t want to drop light spoilers but I’ll drop the lightest spoiler

(17m 54s)

like one of the main main main characters is a Korok like he’s a new

(17m 59s) Kevin :

No.

(17m 59s) Liam:

original Korok voiced by Pro ZD I think I’m pretty sure my white

(18m 6s)

said that she read that he does the voice so I trust that and he at the beginning

(18m 13s)

of the game there are like two parties do in the story separately and he this

(18m 16s) Kevin :

Yeah

(18m 20s) Liam:

Korok this original Korok character who is awesome leads one of those two

(18m 24s)

parties so you don’t get has to but you do get a new original Korok character

(18m 31s)

leading the story in part, which is pretty fun.

(18m 32s) Kevin :

pretty good. All that is pretty good and I love prosody. I think he’s one of the

(18m 36s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, he’s great.

(18m 39s) Kevin :

funniest guys on the internet. But, you know what? I didn’t even have to

(18m 44s)

sum- you don’t have to sum me with that. I joke and say that but I mean this game

(18m 48s)

has been narrow. That’s all I need!

(18m 50s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, she’s her moveset is like super like it’s super amusing her moveset cuz she uses all of the

(19m)

Zona like zonidivices and stuff like that

(19m 3s) Kevin :

Oh, that’s cool.

(19m 3s) Liam:

So there’s like one of her you know in the game when you break an opponents like guard you you do like a finishing move on them

(19m 12s)

right

(19m 12s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, right.

(19m 12s) Liam:

Her her finishing move involves like

(19m 16s)

manually spinning this rotating thing to hit a ball that sl-

(19m 20s)

times into the opponent, like the kind of thing you would do to solve a puzzle in tears of the kingdom, you know?

(19m 24s) Kevin :

Rube Goldberg as an old I love that that’s great

(19m 26s) Liam:

Yeah. Yeah, Minner’s moveset is super baller actually, but if, you know, one of the things I also really like about it a lot is I felt age of calamity struggled a little bit to make me that interested in a lot of its characters.

(19m 45s)

Certainly there were a few where I was like, okay, yes, I’m here for herbosa.

(19m 50s)

Every hour of the day, herbosa and regu can just stay on the screen because they are interesting, but like, I’m not that here for the rido ones like I didn’t find the rido characters that compelling and you know, Bo as well didn’t find them. I don’t find them all that interesting side on I love, but you know, so age of imprisonment is one of the reasons it’s fun is because although it has some characters from cheers of the kingdom you do know.

(19m 52s) Kevin :

Oh yeah!

(20m 8s)

Yeah, I mean, I think of that.

(20m 20s) Liam:

It has it most of the characters are all new original characters and each each of the four each of the tribes has a new leader character who you have not seen in tears of the kingdom or breath the wild and those characters are charismatic protagonists and each of them has to like, like right hand guys basically.

(20m 47s)

So you get you get three from each tribe and the right

(20m 48s) Kevin :

mm-hmm oh that’s fun okay sure

(20m 50s) Liam:

guys are much less developed but but you still get the main the main new ones for each tribe who are like

(20m 57s)

just bonafide new goes that making there’s a new Gerudo here’s a new Goron etc you know the you know the

(21m 4s)

play the the news or a chief 10 I particularly like her I think she is is great she’s cool so you know

(21m 17s) Kevin :

Yeah, that is true.

(21m 17s) Liam:

Big, big positive in my eyes.

(21m 20s)

Having like all these characters, you know, I said you didn’t see them in tears of the kingdom.

(21m 25s)

That was actually kind of wrong because you do see them in the mat. Yeah, wearing their masks, right?

(21m 27s) Kevin :

You see them in the flashback right the the sequences

(21m 31s)

Yeah, yeah, but you never get their names even I don’t think

(21m 33s) Liam:

In this.

(21m 35s)

No, no names, no faces. So, so yeah, so technically you do see them.

(21m 37s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah

(21m 40s) Liam:

It’s true, but they weren’t developed characters back that now for the most part,

(21m 42s) Kevin :

Right right yeah

(21m 44s) Liam:

they have their masks off in this game and you speak to them and they have names and faces lives.

(21m 46s) Kevin :

Yeah

(21m 50s)

That’s cool

(21m 50s) Liam:

So it’s still a mousseau game. The story only goes so deep and we have not finished it yet,

(21m 53s) Kevin :

Yeah, of course

(21m 55s) Liam:

but it’s lovely and sexy Ganondorf is on display for like from the beginning.

(21m 58s) Kevin :

The real draw the absolutely

(22m 2s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah for real. Um, so, uh, yeah.

(22m 7s) Kevin :

All right, that’s good stuff

(22m 10s)

Okay, so are you ready for oh?

(22m 12s) Liam:

What, what, can I ask what have you been playing lately before we, before we jump over to what I know you’ve been playing?

(22m 17s) Kevin :

Okay, well, yeah, okay. We’ll go get there. Okay. Um, so I’ve been I’ve been a bit fairly busy this past week or so

(22m 26s)

So I picked up Marvels.

(22m 27s)

I’ll snap again a fair good amount I believe if I recall correctly you are a hard aficionado slash part game aficionado slash fiend like me

(22m 39s) Liam:

Yeah. I love card games. I’ve fallen off in recent years because like doing TCGs at the same time

(22m 44s) Kevin :

Oh

(22m 46s)

Yeah

(22m 48s) Liam:

as everything else has been too much for me. But card video, particularly narrative card video

(22m 50s) Kevin :

Oh, yeah

(22m 56s) Liam:

games, you know, stuff like Chain of Memories and Mega Man Battle Network and Lost Kingdoms and

(22m 57s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, why is move I didn’t make that mistake. I heard didn’t make that smart choice. I made them sick of keeping it

(23m) Liam:

stuff like Big Time, Big Time, my jam. Marvel Snap, I played, I played quite a lot near launch.

(23m 9s)

And I deleted it from my own protection because it’s, it’s good. Yeah, it’s good.

(23m 19s)

It’s tough. It’s tough. They, they getcha hooked easy. Anyway, yeah, go on.

(23m 22s) Kevin :

So

(23m 24s)

Yeah, yeah

(23m 26s)

And so, yeah.

(23m 27s)

I mean, I fell off. I had my first break like last month because I just got busy with my stuff. It wasn’t like intentional or anything. I stopped lying for a few weeks.

(23m 37s)

Um, but then they added man spider. One of my favorite Marvel characters all the time because it’s the stupidest idea and I love it so much. I’m so I got back in because I wanted that man spider goodness.

(23m 49s)

But anyways, um, yeah, that game’s been running for a while too almost three years. I think if not longer. I don’t really exactly.

(23m 57s)

But it’s it’s at a point where the card pool is so large that, you know, the meta game is is pretty stable. There’s one or two dominating strategies, but, um, by and large you can kind of play what you want. Yeah, yeah, it is hard. And they’re very good at balancing every like two weeks or so. They’ll make nerfs and buffs and whatnot. But, um, it’s.

(24m 12s) Liam:

Hard hard for that not to happen

(24m 16s)

Yeah

(24m 21s)

I’ve heard I have a I have a friend here in Japan who I often speak to who’s still he’s been playing since launch and

(24m 27s) Kevin :

Mm-hm.

(24m 28s) Liam:

I he’s other YouTube guy you may have heard of mother’s basement Jeff

(24m 33s)

Yeah, and and he tells me sometimes about the the nerfs and stuff and like the tweaks people get angry because their cards

(24m 34s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(24m 41s) Liam:

the numbers on the–

(24m 42s)

on their cards change, which I find funny. Yeah, you’re right, by the way, three years. You pretty much nailed it. So, uh, I find that so funny the numbers on the cards changing. Like, don’t get that on paper so much, but.

(24m 55s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I didn’t realize you were in cons talking with mother to be I forget his name

(25m 2s)

His mother’s basing my brain, but oh, I love him so much Jeff. Thank you. He’s great. Oh

(25m 3s) Liam:

Jeff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he’s good friend of mine. So anyways, I cut off your Marvel snap story. Go ahead.

(25m 8s) Kevin :

Love Jeff

(25m 10s)

No, no, that’s fine. That’s fine. I love that. No, I mean just yeah, that’s that’s the big thing

(25m 15s)

I’ve been playing on they they’re doing a season right now on

(25m 19s)

Weapon X like specifically the weapon X program, so we’re gonna get

(25m 25s)

Like there’s weapon X Wolverine. We know what the helmet and the

(25m 29s)

Cyclops might or whatever

(25m 30s) Liam:

Wolverine’s finally in the game.

(25m 32s) Kevin :

Yep. Yes. Yes

(25m 33s) Liam:

Finally.

(25m 36s) Kevin :

No, yeah, sometimes they’ve been doing this here and there where they’ll kind of revisit a card in a new form or something like that

(25m 44s)

They did it for a tip fantastic for when the movie came out. They did like all new versions

(25m 49s)

You’re like first-step versions of the cards just the separate cards

(25m 53s) Liam:

So is that just like a new skin for them or did they also do like new new cards for them?

(25m 53s) Kevin :

Amen.

(25m 56s)

No, no, no, it says I’ll write new cards like weapon X Wolverine is just an outright new card

(26m) Liam:

Oh cool. Oh

(26m 3s)

Wow, I see yeah, he’s got the helmet on and stuff. Uh awesome damn that looks really

(26m 5s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah

(26m 8s)

So yeah, it’s so yeah, and X-Men seasons are always fun because they’re not afraid to you know dig deep and pick out weird picks and whatnot

(26m 16s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(26m 17s) Kevin :

They have what’s the key arrow the character

(26m 20s)

I know in my brain is spike because I watched X-Men evolutions

(26m 21s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(26m 23s)

Next one up. Yeah, yeah

(26m 25s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah

(26m 29s)

Yeah, but that’s yeah, so that’s been fun. Oh, I’m just just picking them all so I’m just the game

(26m 37s)

I can and they’re so quick. You cannot get a gaming, you know like five minutes, so

(26m 41s)

That’s it’s dangerous for that reason. Yeah

(26m 42s) Liam:

I totally get what you mean.

(26m 44s)

Yeah.

(26m 46s) Kevin :

So let’s see so that that’s been going on I’m

(26m 51s)

Yeah, not too much. Oh wait. Oh, you know, no

(26m 55s)

There is one other one

(26m 56s) Liam:

Hmm. No, no.

(26m 57s) Kevin :

Okay, so my my one of my you know what I’m I’m ashamed the most of my loz I’m ashamed my love you go and

(27m 4s)

Sonic one of the other ones that that the I mean

(27m 8s)

Have you ever played any of the mohoyo games?

(27m 11s) Liam:

Oh, yeah, hoi-o-verse, yeah.

(27m 11s) Kevin :

Liam

(27m 13s)

Yeah, we oversee. Yeah

(27m 15s) Liam:

I played an embarrassingly large amount of gench impact.

(27m 22s)

I played a little bit at launch bounced off it,

(27m 24s)

did not like it, thought it was way too derivative.

(27m 28s) Kevin :

Yeah

(27m 29s) Liam:

And then I came back around when Inazuma came out,

(27m 33s)

and I played a lot until up until Natland stuff.

(27m 40s)

And then Zennel’s.

(27m 41s)

On zero, I played my wife and I both played daily for almost exactly a year.

(27m 47s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(27m 48s) Liam:

I think we realized it was the first anniversary and we were like, “Oh my god, we’re spending

(27m 56s)

each like half an hour plus a day on this game.”

(27m 59s)

And so we both went complete cold turkey on it.

(28m 4s)

Despite really enjoying the combat, I really think that game has very fun combat and very

(28m 10s)

be bad writing.

(28m 10s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(28m 11s) Liam:

I think it has worse combat and very worse writing.

(28m 17s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So first one. So my sister was the first one that you get to, she’s

(28m 18s) Liam:

So what’s your what’s your Hoyover’s drink of choice?

(28m 26s) Kevin :

started genshin near launch, I think. And I agree. It was very, very derivative at first.

(28m 32s)

But I think it has kind of grown. But like, it’s still probably the worst of the big three.

(28m 38s)

Like, we make the joke that she logs in to just do polls and not even play the statement.

(28m 44s) Liam:

I have a friend who does that. She pays for the the welcome moon pass and I think like I don’t think she plays most days

(28m 47s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. So she also plays Hongkai. That’s like her main thing now.

(28m 51s) Liam:

She just signs in gets her gets her hit

(28m 56s)

Yeah

(28m 59s)

Hmm

(28m 59s) Kevin :

I was eyeing Hongkai for a bit because like the turn-based thing appeals to me. But then when Zen

(29m 5s)

less came in, oh, I was I was in Zen less is my drink of choice. And they just dropped the new

(29m 11s) Liam:

Yeah. Yeah.

(29m 13s) Kevin :

season and what’s nice

(29m 17s)

so I think I’ve dropped maybe 20 30 bucks on the game since it came out like you said it’s it’s a game that incentivizes you to play daily and I have much to to my own

(29m 27s)

trigger and but

(29m 28s) Liam:

Yeah, I’m very happy. I didn’t spend a dime on Zenless.

(29m 30s) Kevin :

but like

(29m 34s)

yeah, yeah

(29m 34s) Liam:

I, for Genshin, I only bought the beginners pack when it first launched,

(29m 40s) Kevin :

Yeah, uh-huh

(29m 40s) Liam:

and then after that, I became morally opposed to paying money for Gatcha Games.

(29m 45s) Kevin :

Yeah, no, no, I generally

(29m 45s) Liam:

So, I, like…

(29m 47s) Kevin :

Yeah, I am too, but I move this, there’s just like one one splurge, but yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so like, and here’s the kind of thing because not all these the gameplay fun and they continue to to release new characters that I find fun.

(29m 51s) Liam:

Yeah, oh, don’t worry, I’m not judging you for it or anything.

(29m 54s)

These are machines created to adapt.

(29m 58s)

I don’t fault anyone for paying into it, that’s what they’re for, that’s what they’re designed.

(30m 14s) Kevin :

But, you know, being again shined or a gacha gacha.

(30m 17s)

Yeah, I think he’s coming out in like two weeks.

(30m 17s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(30m 25s) Kevin :

There’s a character named Bonway.

(30m 27s)

He’s a robot lion man with orbs kind of like Zenyatta.

(30m 28s) Liam:

Yeah.

(30m 30s)

Yeah, I seen this guy.

(30m 32s) Kevin :

And he, oh my, he just looks so cool.

(30m 35s)

I’m partial to anyone who just fights with their fists and this is one of them.

(30m 40s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, yeah

(30m 41s) Kevin :

So, I’m off.

(30m 43s)

So I’m all… Yeah, that’s…

(30m 43s) Liam:

Probably the least clothed character so far. He’s only got a hoodie good for him

(30m 47s) Kevin :

It’s true. And it’s wrapped around his waist.

(30m 50s) Liam:

I support

(30m 52s)

Yeah, I support getting getting guy fans service in these games

(30m 57s) Kevin :

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, absolutely.

(31m 1s)

Yeah, that’s…

(31m 3s)

So yeah, it’s endless. It’s dropped.

(31m 5s)

And then they continue to play it.

(31m 7s)

It’s… I enjoy it enough.

(31m 9s)

But…

(31m 11s)

Okay.

Kirby Airriders

(31m 12s) Kevin :

So the listeners at home, they know me.

(31m 15s)

They know, I’m…

(31m 17s)

one of the greatest champions of curvy air ride and sequel curvy air riders.

(31m 22s)

What they don’t, maybe know, is that there are three other people on this earth who I acknowledge loving the game as much as me.

(31m 28s) Liam:

That’s it

(31m 29s) Kevin :

One is my sister Melanie, who grew up playing with me. Second is Masahiro Sakurai.

(31m 35s) Liam:

Mmm that makes sense

(31m 36s) Kevin :

And, yep, and third is you, Mr. Liam, because I am well aware how partial you are to this game.

(31m 45s) Liam:

Thank you. Hey, I really appreciate it. It is one of my long time regrets that we didn’t do an elaborate air ride video on best friends

(31m 48s) Kevin :

You’re welcome.

(31m 55s) Liam:

That’s one of those ones that I always look back on and I’m like, why didn’t that happen? I don’t know

(31m 56s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah.

(31m 59s)

I don’t… Oh my gosh.

(31m 59s) Liam:

I don’t know. I don’t know. And if it did then I’ve just shut it out of my memory, but I don’t think it did

(32m 4s) Kevin :

I believe, well, he said there was a recorded video, but it was one of the few that was lost if I recall.

(32m 9s) Liam:

Right, that’s true. We did do something and I think I think cranky construct

(32m 12s) Kevin :

Yeah, I think I heard that tape bit.

(32m 15s) Liam:

I don’t know what he goes by now, but I think he had made an animation for us and everything

(32m 20s) Kevin :

Oh, what?

(32m 20s) Liam:

That’s crazy that you remember that. Yeah, like a little animated opening. It’s crazy that you remember that cuz that totally jogged my memory and

(32m 24s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I have an unhealthy amount of memory things of various new topics, but yeah, thank you

(32m 30s) Liam:

Damn

(32m 35s)

Yeah, air ride kicks ass, man. You’re you’re you’re right to acknowledge its greatness

(32m 41s)

I love I love that people didn’t understand there

(32m 45s)

ride the first time and so Nintendo and Sakurai just went we’re gonna make you understand this time we’re gonna

(32m 51s) Kevin :

What one of my favorite memes I’ve seen because I’ve been you know, I’ve seen a lot of traction from the new art medium that is Kirby a writer, but I’ve seen a meme here there

(32m 58s) Liam:

Hmm

(33m) Kevin :

Back to the future. I assume you’ve seen back in the future

(33m 3s) Liam:

Yes, yeah. Oh, I see where you’re going with this. Yeah

(33m 4s) Kevin :

Yeah, so if you remember it

(33m 6s)

Yeah, I’ve one of my favorite memes is Marty at the end of his guitar song

(33m 11s)

Well, I guess you aren’t ready. You aren’t ready for this and you see pervy air ride original with the 50

(33m 16s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(33m 16s) Kevin :

Metacritic score, but your kids are gonna love it and you get air riders at the 80.

(33m 19s) Liam:

Yeah, for real

(33m 22s)

Yeah, it’s it’s so true, but you know, it’s it’s it’s man the reviews

(33m 28s)

For air ride. I’ve always found interesting because I have a hard time faulting

(33m 35s)

Any reviewers for scoring the original low, you know if you if you were if you were if you had that game plopped on your desk back then and

(33m 45s)

You didn’t get a review guide back then it wasn’t so common and you didn’t have friends around to play with and you had

(33m 52s)

Best a couple weeks to review it. I could totally see how someone would come away from that game

(33m 58s)

Being like there’s nothing going on. There’s like unless you become addicted to solo city trial

(34m 1s) Kevin :

Yeah, but it was, I can, you’re right, you’re right.

(34m 6s) Liam:

Like I you know what I mean it seems ripe for like a tough tough situation a tough game to review

(34m 15s) Kevin :

Especially if the attitudes of gaming at that time, like I absolutely see that.

(34m 19s)

Now that I think about like, I’ve never like, it was absolutely for me to part by never thought about how much.

(34m 25s)

But like I said, my sister enjoys it as much as I do and like I think a big part of it was because

(34m 31s)

it’s so much together. One of our favorite things was just doing free try, free run in city trial, just running around the city and just, you know, just running around for machines and having fun. It was, it was a sandbox basically.

(34m 43s) Liam:

for real. That was the f**king VR chat of its time. Everyone, everyone running around with Kirby,

(34m 53s)

like doing the pitalyest platforming, attempting to climb up the skyscrapers with the poor feeling jump.

(35m 1s)

Yeah. That was it. That was the Fortnite hangout spaces of its time. Was you and three friends

(35m 2s) Kevin :

Trying to fight for the control of the sky island.

(35m 10s)

You get it. You get it.

(35m 11s) Liam:

or one sibling.

(35m 13s)

F***ing around city trial infinitely.

(35m 17s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(35m 18s) Liam:

Yeah, god.

(35m 20s)

It’s so nostalgic.

(35m 20s) Kevin :

Oh my gosh.

(35m 22s) Liam:

It’s funny because it makes me think of nowadays there are so many experiences that are like, quote-unquote, “liminal spaces” and stuff like that.

(35m 33s)

And like that city trial experience, like playing with no timer, no rules, that’s what that feels like to me.

(35m 41s) Kevin :

Yeah, Mark Zuckerberg and his billions of dollars

(35m 43s) Liam:

Couldn’t make this.

(35m 45s) Kevin :

with his meta versus Kirby era, right?

(35m 48s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, for real, eh?

(35m 51s)

That’s such a…

(35m 52s)

I’m glad you had that experience as well because I had that same experience with my friends and my sisters as well.

(35m 56s) Kevin :

Oh, oh, I’m so glad you got it.

(36m) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, magical.

(36m) Kevin :

Oh, it’s the most specific feeling,

(36m 4s)

but it’s great, magical.

(36m 5s) Liam:

Yeah, for real.

(36m 6s) Kevin :

Okay, so, and now here we are,

(36m 9s)

where the sequel to reality.

(36m 10s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(36m 11s) Kevin :

Well, let’s, I mean, you recorded, I think you recorded your reaction. You were watching a direct if I recall and you recorded it.

(36m 13s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(36m 16s)

Yeah, yeah, yeah my my YouTube channel has become nothing but Kirby Air Ride videos the last five videos or Kirby Air Rider videos, so yeah

(36m 28s) Kevin :

Okay. So I, I’ve said this to people that have heard this on the show already, but I’m going to repeat it to you because I just want to describe my reactions.

(36m 42s)

But, okay. Actually, no, no, what was in the office? I was in the office. It was like 9 a.m. I was in my office job, but I was watching the direct any care at this point at that time.

(36m 42s) Liam:

hahaha

(36m 54s) Kevin :

And so you see the trailer start and it’s Carvy on the warp store, right? And so, you know, in turn, I think I was chatting friends on Discord. I’m pretty sure I was. I was just, you know, snarkily saying, Oh, is this the new Smash Bros?

(37m 9s)

And then it lingers on curvy.

(37m 11s)

And so I think it’s not smash because it’s a new curvy project, but it feels too soon for a new curvy game.

(37m 19s)

So I again snarkily say is this the curvy air ride sequel?

(37m 24s)

And then the second the exhaust like pipes form on the warp star.

(37m 31s)

My hands just go up to my mouth and I have to hold back the screen because I’m in the office.

(37m 39s)

It is because I realized

(37m 41s)

it actually was, and I had to legit fight some tears back watching that trailer because I couldn’t believe it, I couldn’t believe it, I couldn’t believe it, it was really great.

(37m 51s) Liam:

So, so good.

(37m 52s)

I never, I never really thought it would happen.

(37m 56s)

Like, after, after Neer Automata was announced years ago,

(37m 59s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(38m) Liam:

that was the most explosive reaction I ever had to a trailer.

(38m 4s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(38m 4s) Liam:

That really like got me.

(38m 5s) Kevin :

Uh-huh.

(38m 6s)

Yeah.

(38m 6s) Liam:

It was so specific at the right time of my life,

(38m 8s)

and God, I wish I had a recording of that, but I don’t.

(38m 11s)

But that, that was the one that hit me at a level

(38m 14s)

that I don’t think I’ll ever see again.

(38m 16s)

And getting lucky with Streets of Rage 4

(38m 19s)

and Neo the world ends with you.

(38m 21s) Kevin :

Oh my gosh, that was a good one, too.

(38m 21s) Liam:

You know, I’ve come to a state of mind where as long as that director is like still in their position

(38m 32s) Kevin :

• Yeah, I guess so.

(38m 32s) Liam:

I just don’t count anything out anymore. Everything’s on the table. So for me, I didn’t consider Air Ride 2 to be an

(38m 40s)

impossibility, but I just thought like outside of Japan, it wasn’t really a hit. So probably not, you know,

(38m 48s)

probably we’ll just see it appear on the GameCube app.

(38m 51s)

That’ll be and I’ll be happy enough with that, just being able to play the GameCube one.

(38m 54s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

(38m 56s) Liam:

So I didn’t really see it coming, but I’m very glad it did honestly.

(39m 1s)

I was very, I was also very happy, maybe not as explosive as you, but very happy about it.

(39m 6s) Kevin :

we see we’re fortunate that soccer I had that fire burning in him just like a

(39m 6s) Liam:

So I’m glad it was such a moment for you though honestly.

(39m 9s)

It’s a good feeling.

(39m 15s) Kevin :

I saw these years, that’s really the best.

(39m 21s) Liam:

Because it’s so interesting, because I would have clocked that the other way, I would

(39m 36s) Kevin :

Yeah

(39m 39s) Liam:

have thought, “Oh, Sacher, I want to take another go at it.”

(39m 40s) Kevin :

Absolutely, right

(39m 42s)

Yeah, I

(39m 42s) Liam:

Yeah, evidently he did want to take another go at it, he accepted, but I would have thought

(39m 45s) Kevin :

Yeah

(39m 46s)

Yeah

(39m 47s) Liam:

he would have been the origin point of that.

(39m 48s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, the theory I subscribe to was that this was his

(39m 53s)

Okay, I’ll do smash again, but you give me one game

(39m 55s) Liam:

Hmm. Yeah.

(39m 55s) Kevin :

That’s that’s what I envision it, but yeah, that though he described that they came to him which boggles my mind

(40m 1s)

You know, here’s here’s open. Maybe cheap. Oh, it isn’t dead

(40m 5s) Liam:

It’s, um, it’s so interesting because like they came to him, like, knowing that they had

(40m 11s)

Mario Kart, like, you know, coming out just earlier. Well, you know, at the time, both of these

(40m 16s)

games were years away, right? But like, knowing that they kind of, and ending up releasing next

(40m 21s)

to each other in some way and they still did it, super interesting.

(40m 23s) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(40m 25s) Liam:

I think he even made a joke about that in one of his presentations on it.

(40m 28s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I believe he did and

(40m 30s) Liam:

But yeah, I’m glad that whatever led us down this timeline, I’m glad that it happened.

(40m 35s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, and and an important thing like a little more objectively about air right that I don’t think we

(40m 43s)

It’s past around enough is is if you look back a lot

(40m 48s)

You know, Sakurai has a very stylized approach to his games with the checklist.

(40m 53s)

And the menus and what the a lot of that you can see in air ride like you can really feel the genesis was there

(40m 59s)

Like it was kind of forming first and melee and stuff, but I think it really solidified there

(41m 5s) Liam:

I agree, AirRide to Brawl, you can really see the close evolution there, whereas Melee is still a little bit more normal with the menus, like they’re stylish, and you can use the C-Stick to look around a little bit, but yeah, AirRides, the real genesis of the menus that I think his wife designs, if I remember right.

(41m 8s) Kevin :

Yep, absolutely

(41m 14s)

Yeah, yeah

(41m 25s)

Oh really, it’s so cool

(41m 26s) Liam:

So they weren’t married at the time, but they started working together at how, and she still…

(41m 35s)

like, supervisors and does the menu designs, so it’s like, so you’re not wrong to attribute it to Sakurai, but it’s the other Sakurai, because that is now her. That is now her last name.

(41m 38s) Kevin :

dang. That’s a keeper. The other side. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that no. Yeah. I was about to say it’s

(41m 49s) Liam:

But definitely, like, their style of menu is so good. I mean, you saw that I ripped it really hard for Garden Guardian. Yeah, yeah.

(42m) Kevin :

so good. It influenced other games that we might talk about. But will we?

(42m 5s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, we could talk about that later for sure, because that’s real. Yeah.

(42m 8s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get to there. Yes. Okay. Um, but all right. So, I mean, that that’s the preamble. Tell me what are your thoughts on

(42m 17s) Liam:

I’m I’m really happy with what it turned out to be which

(42m 25s)

Not really a hot take, but like air riders feels to me more like curvy air riders like a curvy air ride 1.9

(42m 34s)

You know like it doesn’t it’s like there’s a bunch of new content

(42m 38s)

There’s quite a bit of new content, but also all of the old stuff is back like all the old tracks are here

(42m 42s) Kevin :

because soccer I

(42m 44s) Liam:

Yeah, right all the old tracks are here

(42m 47s)

The game the control model feels pretty much identical to how it originally was, you know, the only thing we’re really missing is the original city trial map, which is a bummer

(43m)

I would have I would have liked to see that, but

(43m 4s)

I really kind of like that it feels like so much like the original, I guess it’s so faithful

(43m 13s)

Again, I would have been perfectly content if they had just put the GameCube one out and that’s

(43m 17s)

one had just been new stuff, but re-imagining and bringing over all the GameCube stuff as well,

(43m 24s)

I’m really satisfied with that.

(43m 29s)

Pretty much everything I like, like all the new vehicles are interesting, being able to

(43m 35s)

transform one of them.

(43m 37s)

The Vampire Star being able to power itself up by hitting opponents.

(43m 42s)

Like a lot of cool new interesting stuff there.

(43m 45s)

new city trial map is great.

(43m 47s)

I’m not sure about it.

(43m 49s)

I’m not sure about it, but it’s just not my bag, so I’m probably never going to touch that and that’s fine.

(43m 59s)

And the other riders, I felt spoiled having however many vehicles and just Kirby in the previous game.

(44m 15s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(44m 17s) Liam:

I’m not willing to pick anyone other than Kirby, because for me I just think of the vehicle pick, like I’m very boring like that right now.

(44m 23s) Kevin :

I mean that I mean that’s that’s perfectly fine and understandable because the I mean really the the weapons gameplay wise mechanically it’s the the the the vehicles that matter like that then all the characters have a few differences but it’s the vehicle.

(44m 24s) Liam:

I need to broaden my horizons on my rider picks for real because I have not been exploring.

(44m 44s)

Yeah, the specials are the thing that I really need to get my head around because that’s

(44m 44s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(44m 49s) Liam:

a whole world, but I do agree that the vehicle, yeah.

(44m 53s) Kevin :

Yeah, absolutely. But I mean one thing I do love that because it’s reaching a wider audience people not just in this game specifically but they’re getting a taste of this cast really robust what I feel cast of Kirby characters.

(45m 12s) Liam:

Uh-huh.

(45m 12s) Kevin :

You know people learning Rick has cut is all on the rage now. You know star man rocky just just these rent little dudes.

(45m 23s)

I get in some love and time in the light line line I’m very very happy. The roach I don’t know why but I always get excited to see the roach maybe it’s just because I like the hat like yeah yeah yeah I agree I haven’t never played squeaks quack either but I love him when he’s included so yeah.

(45m 34s) Liam:

Yeah, I don’t even love the roaches game, but like the roaches funny, and I love the roaches name. I always it’s

(45m 46s)

Starman’s the one for me where I’m like I want to play as you I actually think I still haven’t unlocked Starman

(45m 52s)

But I really want to play as Starman

(45m 53s) Kevin :

Star man okay two things about starment one have you seen his special.

(45m 58s) Liam:

Know I well, I might have seen it in like the sacrifice presents thing, but I don’t remember like I do not know

(46m) Kevin :

Yeah yeah he he he literally just starts supermanning like he just starts flying.

(46m 4s) Liam:

Yeah, that’s great I I like Starman a lot because I think that

(46m 13s)

That first experience you get with the jump power fighting cracko is

(46m 17s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(46m 18s)

Yeah.

(46m 18s) Liam:

such an iconic an incredible Kirby moment, and it’s just like a really powerful moment in in the canon of like Kirby gameplay experiences

(46m 30s)

jump just like even though Kirby has such incredible

(46m 34s)

vertical movement in the first place when you use jump and you get to an area that encourages you to continue going up and then you get to a boss like precision engineered to be targeted with jump like man it’s satisfying so star man and cracko they they occupy like a really strong place in my love for Kirby stuff. Love it.

(46m 46s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, it’s so good.

(46m 55s)

Absolutely. And hey, cracko made it too high.

(46m 58s)

Is that on the bosses?

(47m 1s)

Yeah, the other thing with Starman in city trial, if you you hop off the vehicle,

(47m 4s) Liam:

Hm. No kidding. That’s really cool actually. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

(47m 6s) Kevin :

he actually does jump higher than everyone else.

(47m 8s)

It’s great.

(47m 9s)

Yeah, no, I mean, it’s soccer. I write detention of detail, man.

(47m 14s)

So there’s no jocker there, but.

(47m 16s)

It’s fantastic. Yeah, so the cast it’s so fun to have all these characters and, and you know, would soccer just as a screw it. They can all have copy abilities with it. It’s great.

(47m 27s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, that was that was amusing. I was wondering that when he was presenting the new characters like oh how did they how did they handle this?

(47m 35s)

And I mean I think just waving the hand and being like what ever I think that was the right call honestly, so yeah

(47m 40s) Kevin :

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

(47m 43s) Liam:

The the only thing that I’m like oh, I’m not sure I like this change is

(47m 49s)

in the original air ride you had to press you press the a button to press your vehicle against the ground, right and

(47m 56s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah

(47m 57s) Liam:

So if you wanted to hit a boost panel or like a switch on the ground, you had to press the a button

(48m 4s) Kevin :

Yeah

(48m 4s) Liam:

to to to to physically touch it and I always really liked

(48m 8s)

in the first air ride. There’s this really

(48m 11s)

Mechanically beautiful relationship between the vehicles and the things on the ground because you if you fly over a boost panel for anyone who hasn’t played

(48m 17s) Kevin :

• Mm-hmm.

(48m 19s) Liam:

Kirby air ride you do not boost you have to hit the break button

(48m 23s)

The A button to smush your vehicle onto the ground and when you’re

(48m 27s)

vehicle touches it, then you get the boost. One of the things that’s so

(48m 32s)

beautiful mechanically about this relationship is there’s like a class of

(48m 36s)

vehicles, the bikes, that are always touching the ground and air-go, they just

(48m 41s)

get the boosts for free. That was like a really fun thing, like having to

(48m 46s)

understand how to use the different vehicles and timing your your A button

(48m 51s)

presses for successive panels. I was quite surprised when I played the new one and

(48m 57s)

I saw that that’s been removed and now you you just have to fly over them

(49m 1s)

in order to get a boost. I don’t think it is like so far from a deal-breaker. This

(49m 2s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(49m 7s) Liam:

is like just like a nitpick. Yeah, I always really admired that that design

(49m 13s)

element in the original, so I was disappointed to see it go, but it really

(49m 17s)

doesn’t matter. So now for anyone who hasn’t played it when you fly over a

(49m 21s)

boost panel, you’re just boost and that’s it’s fine. It’s fine. It doesn’t it doesn’t

(49m 26s) Kevin :

and I think it’s a function. I think it’s a function of the higher speed

(49m 26s) Liam:

The bother me, I swear.

(49m 28s)

I’m so unbothered.

(49m 31s)

Sorry.

(49m 34s) Kevin :

because that’s one big thing for me like it does feel a lot faster and maybe

(49m 41s)

that’s just compounded by the fact that you know you have more racers so

(49m 45s)

the game feels more chaotic overall but yeah that doesn’t bother me either

(49m 53s)

but just like it is different.

(49m 56s)

And then there’s something charming about the slower pace of the original, especially when you play the old course like you’re just blasting through them.

(50m 2s) Liam:

yeah, you wisdom. To your credit, though, I think that’s a great observation. You’re right,

(50m 7s)

maybe the faster movement speed was a contributing element there, because that’s kind of what I

(50m 13s)

liked about it, was you ate a time, you’re pressed, right? But admittedly, now you’re going like what,

(50m 18s)

30, 40% faster, so like, you’re right, that’s a tougher mechanically for everyone to be able to

(50m 26s) Kevin :

Yeah

(50m 26s) Liam:

handle, so yeah, I hadn’t thought of that.

(50m 29s) Kevin :

Yeah, um, my one great thing about the old courses. So my my brother Calvin who didn’t exist

(50m 32s) Liam:

hmm.

(50m 37s) Kevin :

When the first air ride came out as of course been playing with me and my sister

(50m 43s)

And and you know, so some of the new courses he he got a winner too because you know

(50m 48s)

I was you know courses learning in the new speed and whatever but anytime we hit the old courses

(50m 56s)

Smoke, it’s just left in the test because smelling in and I just know these courses just

(50m 57s) Liam:

Hmm

(51m 4s) Kevin :

Blodge deep in our brains

(51m 6s) Liam:

Yeah. I totally know what you mean. I played a little bit with my wife and just like,

(51m 15s)

when you hit that bump in checker nights, like everything’s, everything’s right in the world.

(51m 18s) Kevin :

Yeah

(51m 21s) Liam:

You’re right back there when you were a kid. Like, yeah. Man.

(51m 26s) Kevin :

It’s been you’re going down the grind rails for me and there’s like the cities in the right. Oh, oh good

(51m 29s) Liam:

Yeah. Yeah. Man. The nostalgia comes right back.

(51m 33s) Kevin :

Absolutely

(51m 36s) Liam:

I think it’s really interesting. I didn’t obviously, we can’t open up switch to games and rip their files

(51m 42s)

or anything yet. But watching the trailers and comparing it to footage, like, I’m 99% sure they use the

(51m 49s)

exact same geometry for the, um, for the old stages. Like, they only updated the textures.

(51m 55s)

And I think that’s been bad. Like, that they still have a little bit of a lower,

(51m 56s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I, I agree. There’s like, even just looking at like the outline on the minimap, either the just like simpler courses, you know, like just simpler shapes.

(52m) Liam:

lower poly feel even if the art has been overhauled.

(52m 11s)

Mm-hmm

(52m 14s) Kevin :

It’s great. Absolutely. Oh, you know what? They’re okay. So that’s like general air ride, but there is one other change. I’m not grumbled, it’s, it’s, I definitely feel it’s more old.

(52m 26s)

man. Like I just want the old way back. City trial. Like I don’t want, I don’t want anyone to be able to chew just deal with the game that you’re handed. If you, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you get, you know, you have your sick Rex wheelie bike, but you get the flying mini game tough off.

(52m 36s) Liam:

[laughs]

(52m 36s)

Random, random stadium.

(52m 48s)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so like I I I probably feel the same way as you which is like

(52m 55s)

Yes, and also no because like because yes like it’s really hard to beat that like you and your friends

(52m 56s) Kevin :

Quick.

(53m 2s) Liam:

Play through a round of city trial and one of you just gets you have a maxed out Hydra and you can’t do

(53m 7s) Kevin :

[laughs]

(53m 9s) Liam:

You know like

(53m 12s)

I agree like that’s hilarious

(53m 15s)

But I must admit my

(53m 18s)

initial reticence to the change to like pick your stadium is offset by like understanding that like oh there’s

(53m 27s)

a lot of like fun strategic value at the end that like wasn’t present in the original because it’s like oh my

(53m 30s) Kevin :

There is no

(53m 34s) Liam:

vehicle could crush it this but also this one maybe and and so I like I totally see both sides of it and I

(53m 41s) Kevin :

Yeah

(53m 42s) Liam:

I think I’m totally on board with you, where I miss.

(53m 46s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I think it’s two things like

(53m 50s)

Option like giving people more options is always generally a better idea. So I get the I acknowledge that like I

(53m 55s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(53m 56s) Kevin :

And it’s probably more appealing to most people to be able to choose their game.

(54m)

But like you said, there’s a sort of that little mind game when you’re picking a game.

(54m 6s)

Sometimes it’s even not just like what you’re good at, but you saw oh no, there’s like two or three other wing stars in this.

(54m 12s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(54m 12s) Kevin :

I’m good at fly, but I don’t know if I’m that good at flying.

(54m 15s)

Let me pick another one.

(54m 17s)

But what’s nice, at very least, it’s nice that the variety of the mini games has been updated enough to support that.

(54m 27s)

Um, because, you know, all the other classes.

(54m 30s)

But we get a lot of fun stuff, including all these bosses. He’s thrown so many fun, like additions in there.

(54m 36s) Liam:

Yeah. The new bosses are cool. I forget the names of these two events, but the avoiding the

(54m 44s)

laser hallway and the switches, like pressing the switches, I think those are great additions. Yeah,

(54m 46s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, the beam thing. Yeah, yeah, pressing the buttons. That’s a great one

(54m 54s)

Yeah, they are

(54m 54s) Liam:

yeah, big time. The new bosses is dope because like versus DDD was already really cool.

(54m 56s) Kevin :

absolutely

(55m 4s) Liam:

So having…

(55m 6s)

a bunch of them now. So good. And they still come out rare enough that it’s special kind of when it happens.

(55m 12s) Kevin :

Yeah, it is, and you know, even when it does come out, you know, who’s it gonna be? Is it gonna be the the Robo Did is it gonna be nightmare?

(55m 16s) Liam:

Mm-hmm.

(55m 20s) Kevin :

You know, and you never know. It’s it’s fun. It’s great

(55m 20s) Liam:

Mm-hmm.

(55m 22s)

Yeah.

(55m 22s) Kevin :

Um, and you know different vehicles dude differently against them. Oh, it’s fantastic. Oh

(55m 27s) Liam:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. I’m still making my way through road trip mode,

(55m 31s)

because I’ve been doing a playthrough of that, uh,

(55m 33s) Kevin :

Uh-huh

(55m 34s) Liam:

and so I’ve only been playing it when I have the opportunity to.

(55m 36s)

to record so I’ve I’ve finished it once I got the normal ending. Have you have you

(55m 43s)

gotten at least that far? I want to make sure I don’t say anything. Let’s.

(55m 45s) Kevin :

Okay, well, okay. Well, here’s the thing the switch to is actually my brothers. I don’t have the switch to myself

(55m 49s) Liam:

Ah okay okay see you see. Mmm it’s funny how that goes.

(55m 51s) Kevin :

But the game is my

(55m 53s)

But yeah, yeah

(55m 56s)

But so like and I’ll unplay or whatever because I’m working and he’s in college

(56m 2s)

It’s more free time than I do so as like, you know, go ahead

(56m 6s)

You can play road trip mode or whatever. I’ll get to it when I can so we so he’s played it

(56m 11s)

So I’m familiar with everything I haven’t played it myself, but I’m familiar

(56m 15s)

with Story in LORWISER, whatever so, speak freely.

(56m 17s) Liam:

Okay, cool. I will speak relatively freely. I’ve been playing through that and it’s been really fun to

(56m 23s)

encounter the bosses for the first time in that context. Not all of them have like a grand

(56m 29s)

presentation or anything, like sometimes you just get to the end of an area and it’s like,

(56m 33s)

“Oh, nightmares here.” And you’re like, “Oh, okay, I guess nightmares here.” But it’s still fun

(56m 39s)

getting introduced to these bosses in this solo setting where it’s like, “Yeah, figure it out.”

(56m 44s) Kevin :

Yeah

(56m 47s) Liam:

So, nightmares specifically, I lost a couple times because I was not respecting just how much

(56m 51s)

damage he does. But yeah, the bosses are, I find, quite enjoyable actually. Like Kirby Air Ride

(56m 53s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(56m 59s) Liam:

is really suited to combat despite how, like, unwieldy it is. Like, you know, there’s evidently

(57m 5s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(57m 6s) Liam:

a ton of work put into making combat still feel fun in this weird car setting. And the bosses feel

(57m 10s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(57m 13s) Liam:

super great to fight against.

(57m 17s)

Yeah, the- since you haven’t played it, I won’t ramble too much on this, but the- the new mode is really cool.

(57m 24s)

It’s like- it’s like if they took, um, Super Smash Bros. 4 Nintendo 3DS’s classic mode, and they, like, super elaborated it out to, like, a- a long enough story thing.

(57m 31s) Kevin :

Yeah

(57m 38s)

Mm-hmm. Yeah

(57m 38s) Liam:

You know, it took me, like, three to four hours to finish it the first time I want to say- I played through on hard, um,

(57m 45s)

which is totally managed.

(57m 47s)

I think you’d totally be able to manage hard, but it’s nice. It’s not going to blow you away or anything like that, but it is a fun addition to the line up of modes.

(58m 1s)

It definitely provides a solidly different experience, and the final boss was very cool.

(58m 10s)

One of the other legendary air ride machines there. I thought that was a very cool sequence that I did not.

(58m 18s)

It’s just so big.

(58m 21s) Kevin :

Yeah. It’s a huge.

(58m 24s) Liam:

That mode is cool.

(58m 28s)

When you finish it, you get access to New Game Plus, which is the only way to unlock the true ending and stuff like that, or whatever it’s called.

(58m 35s) Kevin :

frequent curvy fashion.

(58m 37s) Liam:

And in New Game Plus, you unlock an additional difficulty called very hard, which uncharacteristically, I cowardly.

(58m 47s)

You’re going to take forever if I have to deal with this, but very hard removes your ability to pay money to retry events that you fail, and you actually have to back up in the level to the last real checkpoint, and I was like, “Oh no, that’s going to slow me down so much.

(59m 2s) Kevin :

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

(59m 6s) Liam:

I’m just not going to do this during the playthrough.”

(59m 8s)

It definitely seems like there’s enough meat on these bones.

(59m 17s)

I don’t think anyone should buy this game for single player play and expect it to blow them away.

(59m 27s)

But I definitely think anyone who does buy it, you got a nice little depending on whether you want to see the true ending, a nice little 3-6-hour campaign, which is cool.

(59m 39s) Kevin :

yeah yeah I agree and and again one of the the other nice bits of this having

(59m 40s) Liam:

It’s not just better than nothing, it is genuinely a good one.

(59m 51s) Kevin :

go fairly large appeal um you know some people by Kirby standards this is I

(59m 59s)

fairly light story I would say yeah right

(1h 1s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, I mean boy one of those cutscenes going hard, but yeah, it is reasonably light. I get what you mean

(1h 9s) Kevin :

but a lot of people are seeing these cutscenes though and and getting a taste

(1h 14s)

like oh Kirby goes this hard and

(1h 16s) Liam:

You know, it’s interesting cuz like my wife pointed this out

(1h 20s)

But she was like, you know, most curvy games only go this hard in the last like

(1h 24s)

20% in the last like bit but in road trip where the campaign the normal ending is only like two three hours

(1h 31s)

Like yeah, you see the fucked up stuff within our two, you know, like you get right to it. It’s great

(1h 38s) Kevin :

I mean, I mean, heck, even, you don’t even have to touch the mode, you just tried the galactic

(1h 46s)

Nova course, you see them genociding, you’re playing it.

(1h 48s) Liam:

Sure. Yeah, Galactic Nova is just like this planet in particular. Yeah, Galactic Nova a little trickster guy, little awful, awful planet star, and he’s got, I haven’t finished Kirby Planet Robot actually. I’m really hoping that those rumors of a rerelease are true, but that game has a, a sibling planet to Galactic Nova, right?

(1h 56s) Kevin :

and then you go kill as hard.

(1h 59s)

• Yeah.

(1h 1m 11s)

it yeah I yeah I think I don’t remember the fully the Lord but I think it’s

(1h 1m 18s) Liam:

Apparently who is also a big asshole, but I don’t, I don’t know.

(1h 1m 23s) Kevin :

actually like for the robot like theme of mechanization it’s like an upgrade

(1h 1m 29s)

through Nova actually I think or it’s Bay and or it’s based off him or

(1h 1m 34s)

something like that but regardless yeah they the idea is right it’s in some

(1h 1m 38s)

sort of no but upgrade to Jason thing.

(1h 1m 41s) Liam:

cool. I really want to play that game. I played Triple Deluxe and I was so, I came away

(1h 1m 46s)

from it so, eh, that I ended up skipping Robobot, which seems to have been a big mistake,

(1h 1m 53s) Kevin :

Oh, it was I mean I enjoy triple deluxe a lot, but probably because it’d been lost

(1h 1m 53s) Liam:

so.

(1h 1m 59s) Kevin :

I had sunk my teeth into a proper curvy like that, but

(1h 2m 3s)

But you know, I’m robo. Yeah, but robo bot is

(1h 2m 4s) Liam:

Triple Deluxe is fine. It’s fine. Oh

(1h 2m 8s) Kevin :

chef’s kiss

(1h 2m 9s) Liam:

Man, I really hope those rumors are true

(1h 2m 14s) Kevin :

Oh

(1h 2m 17s)

If I didn’t even know there’s rumors, but oh, I’m so excited. Oh, um

(1h 2m 23s)

That’s

(1h 2m 24s)

Furby carbier riders, and I’m trying to think like there’s

(1h 2m 28s)

It’s only I had to talk about the game for a good a little bit

(1h 2m 31s)

But does is there any other thoughts that you

(1h 2m 34s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, I got, boy, I got, I got topics, a really fun topic in Kirby Air Ride is like,

(1h 2m 40s)

you know, in like the Anglo sphere. So if you go on Twitter or your gaming form of choice and you

(1h 2m 45s) Kevin :

• Uh-huh.

(1h 2m 46s) Liam:

discuss Kirby Air Ride, there’s a lot of people who are like, this game was ass actually.

(1h 2m 47s) Kevin :

• Yes.

(1h 2m 48s)

• Yeah.

(1h 2m 51s) Liam:

This game reviewed badly, this game sold badly, etc, etc. So obviously I disagree with them.

(1h 2m 52s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(1h 2m 57s) Liam:

But one thing I find very interesting is the difference in reception between

(1h 3m 4s)

English countries and Japan, because I live in Japan right now, and I have had the luck to

(1h 3m 11s)

talk to some Japanese gamers who like Kirby Air Ride, and everyone here likes it, and it

(1h 3m 18s)

reviewed well, like unambiguously well. It is a well-regarded game, and at retro game stores,

(1h 3m 25s)

it’s one of the most expensive, like, normal games in the library. Yeah, and when I say expensive

(1h 3m 28s) Kevin :

Really? Hm.

(1h 3m 31s) Liam:

of normal games in the library. I mean like I

(1h 3m 34s)

know I’m not counting games with like Pokemon boxes like

(1h 3m 37s)

really limited stuff. Just the normal stuff. And

(1h 3m 37s) Kevin :

Yeah, oh my gosh

(1h 3m 42s) Liam:

and GameCube game prices are a lot lower here. The market has

(1h 3m 46s)

not been ravaged by collectors. But this that game commands

(1h 3m 50s)

like 7000 yen price tag here, which is quite a bit. That’s

(1h 3m 53s)

more than path of radiance here. The region locking really

(1h 3m 55s) Kevin :

Wow, that’s that’s all right yeah

(1h 3m 59s) Liam:

saved their asses on having the market destroyed, so.

(1h 4m 4s)

But Kirby Airide is like, that’s a well-regarded game, whereas in English countries, it has a downright mixed, um, memory, or, you know, like mixed reputation, I should say.

(1h 4m 17s)

And I find that so interesting.

(1h 4m 17s) Kevin :

Well, that’s why we get the angry Kirby in the U.S. on the box, it’s

(1h 4m 21s) Liam:

Yeah, right?

(1h 4m 22s)

I’m sad we didn’t get angry Kirby again, I should go graffiti on my cover.

(1h 4m 28s) Kevin :

But that’s I mean

(1h 4m 31s)

Like I mean obviously you’re out there in Japan, but I’m huge. We a boo-too. Everyone knows this. Oh, yeah

(1h 4m 37s)

No, it sounds about right to me

(1h 4m 40s) Liam:

Yeah, I always just find that an interesting thing anyway that like the the sentiment is just so different around it here

(1h 4m 48s) Kevin :

Yeah, well, I mean, I feel like curvy in general like you

(1h 4m 52s) Liam:

Yeah

(1h 4m 52s) Kevin :

Repain it has a lot of love for curvy

(1h 4m 56s)

Right like you you can see that from my way here in the States. No, not as much. It’s a little more niche

(1h 5m 2s) Liam:

• Yeah, here, here he definitely feels like

(1h 5m 5s)

one of Nintendo’s A-listers.

(1h 5m 7s)

And, well, not that he’s not an A-lister,

(1h 5m 9s)

either in North America,

(1h 5m 10s)

but he doesn’t, you can see Mario stuff at stores

(1h 5m 14s)

in North America, Zelda stuff, too, everyone known again,

(1h 5m 17s)

but Kirby slightly below that.

(1h 5m 21s)

But in Japan, I mean, yeah, yeah, Kirby stuff all over.

(1h 5m 24s) Kevin :

I mean, you guys have the cafe.

(1h 5m 25s) Liam:

I mean, I think there’s two Kirby cafes even.

(1h 5m 28s) Kevin :

Probably.

(1h 5m 28s) Liam:

I haven’t been to either sadly,

(1h 5m 31s)

but I would like to.

(1h 5m 32s) Kevin :

Oh, I would as well.

(1h 5m 32s) Liam:

Um, yeah, um, other, other Kirby Airrider thing, uh, man, those amoebos are really expensive,

(1h 5m 43s)

eh?

(1h 5m 44s) Kevin :

Oh, okay. I wanted to bring this off since we’re here. Talk about the merge

(1h 5m 48s) Liam:

They’re so expensive.

(1h 5m 50s) Kevin :

It’s bad. It’s really bad in the U.S. I don’t know how bad it is in Japan, but it’s bad out here

(1h 5m 52s) Liam:

It’s bad.

(1h 5m 53s)

So, yeah, what’s the U.S. price?

(1h 5m 57s)

Again, exactly, ‘cause I don’t, I don’t know.

(1h 6m) Kevin :

So oh, okay, so I have to double check, but I will say this I

(1h 6m 2s) Liam:

Yeah, actually, that’s a good idea, double check.

(1h 6m 6s) Kevin :

Went I went I will say this I went to a big box store

(1h 6m 12s) Liam:

Uh-huh.

(1h 6m 12s) Kevin :

Target while my camera break big again

(1h 6m 14s)

you know, which is generally MSRP. That was 50, 50 USD. Yup.

(1h 6m 16s) Liam:

Yeah.

(1h 6m 18s)

$49.99.

(1h 6m 20s)

Man, that’s rough.

(1h 6m 21s)

I’m checking the MSRP here because a lot of places in Japan,

(1h 6m 26s)

cool thing, electronic stores, they sell below MSRP

(1h 6m 29s)

to try to compete, which is awesome.

(1h 6m 30s) Kevin :

[laughs]

(1h 6m 33s) Liam:

Like the Kirby iRide, the game itself,

(1h 6m 35s)

I got it for like 800 yen cheaper,

(1h 6m 37s)

because that’s just what electronic stores do anyway.

(1h 6m 40s) Kevin :

[Laughter]

(1h 6m 40s) Liam:

Okay, so the MSR

(1h 6m 42s)

here is 6600 yen for the Kirby’s, which in normal financial times would be like 60 US dollars, but because the

(1h 6m 51s)

yen’s so in the toilet right now, it is 4266. I had a touch cheaper, but still significantly more

(1h 6m 59s) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(1h 7m 1s) Liam:

expensive than the like, this is like double the price of most, most amiibo’s nowadays.

(1h 7m 2s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 7m 6s)

Yeah, and

(1h 7m 9s)

Feels me because like that was a big fan of me, but when they came out I have many many of me, but more than I should admit

(1h 7m 13s) Liam:

Yeah, I, I also have quite a few and I still partake, I, yeah.

(1h 7m 20s) Kevin :

Yeah, I do - I will partake - but I mean it’s not just curvy right like the best

(1h 7m 25s)

I think obviously switch to is coming out like the way

(1h 7m 29s)

it’s just been jacked up by ridiculous numbers for many reasons, I guess, but I haven’t bought well

(1h 7m 37s)

I haven’t gotten one of the Kirby amigo, but when the Kawasaki amigo drops at the wagon star, I’m gonna break. I know I’m gonna break

(1h 7m 42s) Liam:

[laughs]

(1h 7m 44s)

Yeah.

(1h 7m 45s)

Oh, he’s got the hop star, I think,

(1h 7m 48s)

is what he’s got in, for the amoebo.

(1h 7m 48s) Kevin :

We see the hop start thought it was wearing a…

(1h 7m 50s) Liam:

Yeah, usually Kawasaki goes with the wagon, right?

(1h 7m 54s)

Like you’re totally right,

(1h 7m 55s)

but I think the amoebo is the hop star.

(1h 7m 57s)

Yeah, the new one.

(1h 7m 58s) Kevin :

I’m looking this up. Oh, it is hopstart. Okay. You’re right. You’re right. Okay. Well, either we

(1h 7m 59s) Liam:

Yeah, you should.

(1h 8m 1s)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(1h 8m 2s)

But you’re totally right to associate him

(1h 8m 4s)

with the wagon star ‘cause that’s, yeah.

(1h 8m 5s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 8m 7s) Liam:

Anyway, sorry, go on.

(1h 8m 7s) Kevin :

Well, but it’s I mean first what’s chef Kawasaki who’s one of my favorite like side characters and

(1h 8m 13s) Liam:

Mm-hmm.

(1h 8m 14s) Kevin :

The functionality of being will swap them is pretty good. So I’m probably gonna crack with color

(1h 8m 18s) Liam:

Yeah.

(1h 8m 20s)

I really think, like, fundamentally,

(1h 8m 24s)

that’s why these things cost, like, as much as they do,

(1h 8m 27s)

‘cause the brass tax of it is you are getting to amoebo.

(1h 8m 32s) Kevin :

It is. Yeah.

(1h 8m 32s) Liam:

You know what I mean?

(1h 8m 32s)

Like, it fundamentally, it’s to amoebo.

(1h 8m 35s)

When you look at the two amoebo sets,

(1h 8m 37s)

they cost quite a bit more.

(1h 8m 39s)

but the presentation of the Kirby

(1h 8m 42s)

ones where they are only usable as a pair really changes the optics of that right because even though in your brain you know there’s you’re getting two amiibos they don’t work or look good without the other half.

(1h 8m 48s) Kevin :

it does, they don’t

(1h 8m 55s) Liam:

So it’s it’s really quite unfortunate and like even as I say that I’m on Nintendo’s website looking at the latest amiibo sets.

(1h 9m 4s)

So Nintendo Blade 3 and Splatoon 3 sets where you got two amiibos in each of those sets. You know those are only forty four hundred yen which is still

(1h 9m 8s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(1h 9m 12s) Liam:

only two thirds the price. So they’re I’ve seen them in the stores and they are quite nice amiibo but even as someone who still buys amiibo I I can’t and it sucks because I look at that wing star and I’m like oh my god it looks so good but

(1h 9m 12s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(1h 9m 27s)

Yeah. Right, right. Like it’s not only this curvier I

(1h 9m 34s)

sequel out, but I could buy a Winkstar merch and one of myself. And I’m not getting it.

(1h 9m 37s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah, I -

(1h 9m 40s) Kevin :

I was the same same here. I can’t bring myself to do it.

(1h 9m 44s) Liam:

Yeah, bites and like I look at you know one of the ones that that I find crazy is like you know

(1h 9m 49s)

I look at you know Kirby and Waddle Dee at 6600 yen and then I look you know just to the left of them on the shelf

(1h 9m 55s)

And I see the new Metroid Prime four Samus riding the Viola motorcycle which is a very large amiibo and that’s 3500 yen

(1h 10m 3s)

That is only like 55% of the

(1h 10m 7s)

price I mean I know it’s not too amoebos but in terms of plastic girth and it is it is totally right there with it and it’s hard for me to understand why the price is specifically so jacked on these it’s I know Nintendo has like I don’t love the switch to era of pricing for Nintendo I think the console is expensive but like whatever reasonable but I don’t love the other.

(1h 10m 10s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah.

(1h 10m 30s)

Oh, yeah, of course

(1h 10m 35s)

Yeah

(1h 10m 37s) Liam:

You know increases we’ve seen but like these Kirby amoebo are though I think these are the worst price changes we’ve seen on any Nintendo things since switch to launch and I find it brutal cuz I like you I’m like fingers on the glass like what do I do staring longingly into the eyes of waddledy and wingstar? Badanity excuse me bandanity

(1h 10m 37s) Kevin :

The accessories the game

(1h 10m 48s)

• Bro, boy!

(1h 10m 59s)

and then you know like like to twist the knife more you know these work

(1h 11m 13s)

better when you have more than one cuz then you can do the swat

(1h 11m 15s)

to move here yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

(1h 11m 16s) Liam:

• Yeah.

(1h 11m 16s)

• Right, like the functionality is so nifty,

(1h 11m 19s)

but you’re totally right,

(1h 11m 21s)

unless you go 100 bones in the hole,

(1h 11m 23s)

you, all you can do is take them off and be like,

(1h 11m 26s)

huh, and then put them back on, right?

(1h 11m 29s)

Like, yeah, it’s, it, like, I think.

(1h 11m 34s)

So one thing that I think is true,

(1h 11m 37s)

is that it probably would have been a very hard sell

(1h 11m 40s)

to sell them separately.

(1h 11m 43s)

that the vehicle separately from the riders.

(1h 11m 46s)

Because I think they would have run into problems. I think like the hop star would probably be less popular and

(1h 11m 49s) Kevin :

Oh yeah, yup, we’re in Tennessee, which tells, just tells for a bit.

(1h 11m 52s) Liam:

Bandana D would probably also be less popular than yeah

(1h 11m 58s)

Plus only having one

(1h 12m)

You know

(1h 12m 2s)

They don’t look good on their own. They don’t really stand even the the riders

(1h 12m 6s)

I don’t believe they stand properly on their own either because they don’t have a real base

(1h 12m 11s)

So, like, I’m willing to believe that there was probably a conversation.

(1h 12m 16s)

In Nintendo that was like we should let players mix and match and buy them as they want but like the finances of that don’t make any sense to me because you just end up in a situation where you have a bunch of the less desirables.

(1h 12m 25s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(1h 12m 29s) Liam:

You know when you end up with with when Nintendo ends up with an overstock of 400,000 hop stars, you know, like it’s so I don’t want to I don’t want to come off like I’m like caping for Nintendo’s price increases because I do not like.

(1h 12m 46s)

That but I it’s it’s like it’s the realities of of these Kirby ones are brutal in all directions and I hate it.

(1h 12m 46s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 12m 50s)

No, I mean, it’s it’s brutal. Yeah. No, and I mean, I’m in the same book

(1h 13m)

Look at us two world’s biggest fans of this game the series and we are buying the the amoebo the merch that we could have on our desk shelf right now

(1h 13m 10s) Liam:

If bites, and if they were like, I’m looking at the other new amoebos.

(1h 13m 15s)

So like, Donkey Kong from Bonanza and then Samus and Cylex from Metroid Prime for the normal

(1h 13m 23s)

Samus, not the motorbike one, those cost 2,500 yen, which is higher than amoebos used to cost,

(1h 13m 27s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(1h 13m 29s) Liam:

you know, a while ago, but, you know, when I look at that next to 6,600 yen for one of these guys,

(1h 13m 36s) Kevin :

Yes, yes, and honestly like even if it was just 10 USD cheaper just 20% like

(1h 13m 43s) Liam:

30 bucks.

(1h 13m 44s) Kevin :

30 or 40 even 40 you know 40 even 40 I

(1h 13m 46s) Liam:

Oh, sorry, sorry, right, right, right, 40 bucks.

(1h 13m 48s)

Yeah, yeah, 20, 20 apart.

(1h 13m 50s)

Sure.

(1h 13m 51s) Kevin :

Could I think I could stomach it, you know like

(1h 13m 53s) Liam:

I think so too, like bearing in mind,

(1h 13m 58s)

like, yeah, it’s just because we’re such big fans.

(1h 13m 58s) Kevin :

Like for me like me specifically, I don’t I don’t think that would be a good price

(1h 14m 1s) Liam:

Yeah.

(1h 14m 2s) Kevin :

But me specifically I could study get out for it

(1h 14m 3s) Liam:

No.

(1h 14m 6s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(1h 14m 6s) Liam:

Yeah, at least like when I’m rationalizing,

(1h 14m 9s)

like I’m getting two parts,

(1h 14m 10s)

it’s not as brutal as like,

(1h 14m 13s)

300 yen for a bottle of bandana D

(1h 14m 16s)

that I don’t really want that much, you know?

(1h 14m 18s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(1h 14m 18s) Liam:

So I’ll be curious if when Meta Knight

(1h 14m 22s)

and Kawasaki launch, if people may be start swapping,

(1h 14m 27s)

trading amongst each other

(1h 14m 29s)

because these things are so expensive.

(1h 14m 30s)

So for that person who just wants Kirby on a shadow star,

(1h 14m 31s) Kevin :

Yeah, but just I mean keep an eye on me when you know Starman on the transform star releases and I just break again

(1h 14m 35s) Liam:

don’t need Meta Knight, but yeah.

(1h 14m 45s)

Yeah, I have to I have to imagine they’re not going to do more like I I

(1h 14m 51s) Kevin :

No, I don’t either five seems like a good number

(1h 14m 55s) Liam:

I think there’s only four I think it’s only these four right so

(1h 14m 58s) Kevin :

Now there’s there’s five there’s Kirby bend in

(1h 14m 59s) Liam:

Are there five?

(1h 15m 1s) Kevin :

a d d d or you think you print missing d d and don’t forget that’s the one where the the amiibo

(1h 15m 1s) Liam:

Meta Knight Kawasaki. Oh, yeah, there’s DDD right. Sorry. You’re right. There are five

(1h 15m 8s) Kevin :

actually transforms to the tank yep yeah

(1h 15m 8s) Liam:

Which is neat that is neat that is genuinely neat you’re right there are five might be

(1h 15m 13s)

Um, I can’t imagine

(1h 15m 15s)

I think the prices are just gonna do the min. I can’t imagine they’re gonna do well enough to justify but we’ll see

(1h 15m 21s) Kevin :

I will say this, the Street Fighter and Miibo that came out, they were 35 USDs fairly high priced.

(1h 15m 31s) Liam:

Yeah.

(1h 15m 31s) Kevin :

At one point, at least on Amazon, they were marked down to 15 USD, which was more standard.

(1h 15m 36s) Liam:

Yeah.

(1h 15m 38s) Kevin :

So, there’s hope, there’s just limbo.

(1h 15m 38s) Liam:

We didn’t get that experience in Japan,

(1h 15m 41s)

but I did see that that all American retailers

(1h 15m 45s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(1h 15m 45s) Liam:

had a significant price drop on the Street Fighter ones.

(1h 15m 47s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(1h 15m 48s) Liam:

I, yeah, those ones had an unusually high price as well,

(1h 15m 49s) Kevin :

Yeah, and I-

(1h 15m 51s)

Yeah, they are. Yeah.

(1h 15m 52s) Liam:

even though they’re quite large and nice,

(1h 15m 54s)

they were a bit too much.

(1h 15m 56s)

So I’m looking at Nintendo’s Amiibo page right now

(1h 16m 1s)

upcoming Rosalina and Mario, the Galaxy ones.

(1h 16m 3s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 16m 4s) Liam:

And those have 4,000 yen price tags,

(1h 16m 7s)

and I’m like, oh, they’re really big amiibos,

(1h 16m 10s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah

(1h 16m 10s) Liam:

but like looking at their bases, they’re huge,

(1h 16m 12s)

but still, still, I, I yearn for the days of Smash 4

(1h 16m 17s)

launching with 999 US amiibos.

(1h 16m 17s) Kevin :

Oh my gosh, it’s 10. Yeah, 10 years. Do you leave us so good?

(1h 16m 21s) Liam:

Yeah, March space is fucked up.

(1h 16m 23s)

I don’t give a f**k–

(1h 16m 25s) Kevin :

I like it for that way

(1h 16m 26s) Liam:

• I like it.

(1h 16m 27s)

• Stop.

(1h 16m 28s)

• Yeah.

(1h 16m 29s)

• Ah, for real.

(1h 16m 30s) Kevin :

Okay, so that’s okay, that’s correct

(1h 16m 31s) Liam:

• Mm-hmm.

(1h 16m 33s) Kevin :

You know, I’m happy, I finally will sit down, so I want to get exhausted about it, and I’m more than happy too

(1h 16m 42s) Liam:

I think, I think I got, I think I got most of my thoughts out. I mean, yeah, yeah. Definitely,

(1h 16m 44s) Kevin :

Yeah, me too, I think so too

(1h 16m 48s) Liam:

just didn’t want to let it go without talking about those amoebos.

(1h 16m 50s) Kevin :

Yeah, and true to curve, yeah

(1h 16m 54s) Liam:

Everyone, everyone I talk to in my life about the amoebos, they go like,

(1h 16m 59s)

yeah, I don’t buy amoebos anymore. They’re too expensive. So what’s different about this one?

(1h 17m 1s) Kevin :

Wow, yeah, I knew

(1h 17m 3s)

Yeah, yeah, but me too in the same position

(1h 17m 4s) Liam:

And I’m like, you’re right, but you shouldn’t say it. Anyway, so I’m glad I had someone to

(1h 17m 12s)

talk to who’s also like struggling anyway. Now.

(1h 17m 15s) Kevin :

Let’s bear very specific

(1h 17m 19s)

And I just want to point out true to true to the curvy air ride experience

(1h 17m 25s)

I mean, no shade whatsoever, but we just spent one an hour talking, you know, you want that or whatever

(1h 17m 30s)

Whatever length of time we taught and we didn’t mention top right.

(1h 17m 33s)

Yeah, yeah, yeah bringing bringing in the actual vehicle and I think was a smart call and the map feel good, but but it’s top right.

(1h 17m 34s) Liam:

Yeah, I didn’t didn’t at all. I was literally thinking like should I bring up top ride like just just now when you said was there anything else it’s better

(1h 17m 42s)

They made it better. They did they did more

(1h 17m 46s)

Yeah

(1h 17m 52s)

Yeah, oh dude when I was playing when I was playing

(1h 17m 57s)

Roadtrip and I got to a top ride

(1h 18m)

level where my currently equipped vehicle was

(1h 18m 4s)

the swerve star, I was not prepared for how that feels like the first time trying to use the swerve star and top ride.

(1h 18m 5s) Kevin :

DIE!

(1h 18m 13s) Liam:

But like that was genuinely such a really fresh feeling curvy air ride experience.

(1h 18m 13s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah. That was, that is a good one. Absolutely. Okay. One, one more small note. Actually,

(1h 18m 20s) Liam:

Yeah, highly recommend it. Shoot, shoot.

(1h 18m 25s) Kevin :

I’ll on that note. Um, I think like, okay, it’s been a while since I’ve touched the original

(1h 18m 31s)

air, right? So maybe just because my memory is outdated, but I think he balance fixed some of the

(1h 18m 37s)

balancing some of those machines on those original machines, bulk star. Right.

(1h 18m 40s) Liam:

Yeah, you reckon

(1h 18m 43s) Kevin :

Rocket star, they feel feasible. Yeah.

(1h 18m 47s) Liam:

Yeah bulk star when I started my playthrough, I kept referring to it as a lumber and piece

(1h 18m 56s)

And but like getting to use it again, I’m like oh wait hang on a formula star as well

(1h 19m 1s) Kevin :

No, I

(1h 19m 3s) Liam:

I feel like formula star is more viable now

(1h 19m 3s) Kevin :

Yeah, it feels like fun. I feel like formula is almost the best star now. You can go so fast

(1h 19m 10s) Liam:

Formula is strong that was what I used in like the last boss race stage

(1h 19m 12s) Kevin :

And swerves. Yeah, yeah

(1h 19m 15s) Liam:

I was like I just need to crush these straightaways, and it just did it right away. So, yeah

(1h 19m 22s)

Anyway, you’re right

(1h 19m 23s) Kevin :

And swerve stardin nerf just just a hair to you know where it can other machines can’t be with it

(1h 19m 30s) Liam:

Swerve star was disgusting. I once won a money match at Magfest one year

(1h 19m 36s) Kevin :

Yeah, oh

(1h 19m 39s) Liam:

it was, uh,

(1h 19m 40s)

swerve star on machine passage against another guy.

(1h 19m 42s) Kevin :

Well, I mean that you mean you mean the swerve star map that that map

(1h 19m 46s) Liam:

The swerve star map. Yeah, he was good. It wasn’t like a total stomp,

(1h 19m 50s)

but like I always remember that fondly. So yeah, um,

(1h 19m 51s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 19m 53s)

Yeah, yeah.

(1h 19m 56s) Liam:

yeah, swerve star was like kind of kind of too much in the original.

(1h 20m) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, good job, sucker. You fixed the ones that were kind of funky.

(1h 20m 1s) Liam:

I’m definitely, I feel a little sad that it’s like, I don’t feel quite as

(1h 20m 6s)

ridiculously powerful with it but it’s understandable and it’s where it

(1h 20m 17s)

I think so. I think so. I still… I still hate writing. Turbo, though.

(1h 20m 18s) Kevin :

Oh, God.

(1h 20m 22s)

Yeah, it’s it’s a little weird. Um, okay. Well, all right. Okay. There you go, folks. Welcome to the

(1h 20m 29s)

Kirby here.

(1h 20m 30s)

It’s not.

Garden Guardian Interview

(1h 20m 31s) Kevin :

Okay, but now let’s, let’s, let’s move on to our, I want to talk about guarding Guardians for real because.

(1h 20m 34s) Liam:

Hmm. Sure.

(1h 20m 37s) Kevin :

Putting it from my perspective as is someone who followed you for, you know, here’s on super best friends and streams and whatnot.

(1h 20m 48s)

And you know, I’ve always known you to be a passionate guy about games and game design and so on. And so seeing you take the plunge into making the game is very exciting.

(1h 20m 58s)

• Certainly, right.

(1h 21m 1s)

And I mean, “Spry Snow” and “Game Devs Hard,”

(1h 21m 4s)

like I saw “Her Journey” and “It’s Hard.”

(1h 21m 6s)

And I guess, I guess, you know,

(1h 21m 9s)

“Elevator Pitch” for the listeners,

(1h 21m 11s)

what is guarding Guardian?

(1h 21m 13s)

It is a, it’s a, it caught me five bucks,

(1h 21m 16s)

USD on the Switch, right?

(1h 21m 18s)

So that’s the, like, I’m just putting the scale,

(1h 21m 21s)

‘cause that’s, you know,

(1h 21m 22s)

I think that’s a measuring stick of sorts,

(1h 21m 24s)

like, for games, I think it’s fair.

(1h 21m 26s) Liam:

I priced it that way, I think feeling like it was a small game, so you’re not wrong to feel that way.

(1h 21m 28s) Kevin :

• Yeah, yeah.

(1h 21m 31s)

Yeah, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not bad.

(1h 21m 34s)

It’s by no means a bad game, quite satisfying.

(1h 21m 36s)

I’ve enjoyed it, my games that I’ve spent more on, absolutely.

(1h 21m 40s)

And the gameplay is both the legally distinct term,

(1h 21m 47s)

use LCD games.

(1h 21m 48s) Liam:

Health CD yeah, yeah, it fundamentally it comes from my love of game and watch games and

(1h 21m 55s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, it’s a gaming watch game.

(1h 21m 59s) Liam:

Yeah, and you know, I did my best to design an original game and watch game because a lot of

(1h 22m 8s)

There’s lots of game and watch games out there more than almost anyone

(1h 22m 12s)

It could ever possibly remember and there’s lots of LCD games out there and a lot of them

(1h 22m 18s)

Sort of copy each other’s homework and like you know, the game will be arranged vertically or horizontally

(1h 22m 23s)

But there a lot of them can be quite similar to one another and so it was it was actually like a really good

(1h 22m 24s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There. They are.

(1h 22m 30s) Liam:

game design challenge because like

(1h 22m 33s)

Game and watch games are so concise like there’s so little and I really wanted to kind of like respect the rules

(1h 22m 40s)

I didn’t want to have like a scrolling screen or I wanted to to design something that

(1h 22m 46s)

existed in the same.

(1h 22m 48s)

In the same conversation and they didn’t have to be a little but this game is kind of different because it’s you know it cheats in such and such way or what have you.

(1h 22m 55s) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(1h 22m 59s) Liam:

So it was a really tricky exercise actually like making a game with such tight design limitations that still felt fresh and different from other game and watch games.

(1h 23m 12s)

So I mean as a as a kid I the first game I ever own.

(1h 23m 18s)

And was game and watch gallery to my mom bought me a game boy color and game watch gallery to.

(1h 23m 23s) Kevin :

Too specifically. I had that one too. That was a good one.

(1h 23m 26s) Liam:

To specifically such a good game I played the hell out of it and I eventually played three I didn’t really play four ever but to remain like a sort of beloved game and when I was when I went back to college a couple years back.

(1h 23m 31s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I did too.

(1h 23m 39s)

Yeah. Yeah.

(1h 23m 48s) Liam:

During our last semester it was like pandemic we were all doing class from home and stuff.

(1h 23m 55s)

There was like a series of classes at the end where we were just kind of like going over some stuff that I kind of like kind of knew already like some sort of boilerplate kind of like here’s how to save your game here’s how to.

(1h 24m 8s)

It was good information for those who didn’t know it in the class but I had a little more experience so I you know.

(1h 24m 14s)

So, bad student that I was, at some point I like picked up my game.

(1h 24m 18s)

I started playing Game of Watch Gallery to, uh, during a couple of my lessons where I was like, “Okay, I kind of know what’s going on.”

(1h 24m 25s)

Um, and yeah, at some point during that experience, like, I mean, I always loved playing this game, and I still did, and I was like, “I should just make a game. I’ll just make one of these.”

(1h 24m 36s) Kevin :

So that’s the genesis I was curious.

(1h 24m 36s) Liam:

Uh, that’s the Genesis. Game of Watch Gallery to specifically playing it, well, having a lifetime is worth of affection for it,

(1h 24m 48s)

during the tail end of my, uh, college program, engineered, or like, targeting game development. So, uh, it became like, “Okay, I’m going to make like a quick, like, month, month-long, development version of this game.”

(1h 25m 5s)

Uh, and it’ll be what it’s going to be, and at the end of the, well, before the end of the month, I was like, “Oh, this is actually like, quite fun.”

(1h 25m 15s)

Like this is actually like a really surprisingly good.

(1h 25m 18s)

Game and Watch game, so I was like, well, I should take this to its conclusion.

(1h 25m 25s)

I should really elaborate this out into like as full a game and so the development idea behind it

(1h 25m 34s)

kind of changed a little bit. So from the beginning, the one development idea I had was I wanted to

(1h 25m 42s)

take advantage of like a couple limitations being gone. I know I said like I didn’t want to

(1h 25m 49s)

this might be viewed as a cheat. But in old LCD games, you know, characters can only occupy

(1h 25m 55s)

like fixed positions on the screen. And they sort of like appear and they move in like in steps,

(1h 26m 1s)

you know, from position to position on the screen. And so I wanted to take advantage of

(1h 26m 8s)

the fact that characters could move without having to take like these fixed steps. And I also knew

(1h 26m 15s)

I wanted an element of resource management.

(1h 26m 19s)

Not because I think game and watch game fans are like hurtin’ for resource management.

(1h 26m 25s) Kevin :

[laughter]

(1h 26m 26s) Liam:

But because it’s not an element that I see in Game and Watch games very much.

(1h 26m 29s)

You see that in like oil panic?

(1h 26m 31s)

A little filling up Mr. Game and Watch bucket, you know.

(1h 26m 34s)

You see that in oil panic, you know, filling the bucket and managing that.

(1h 26m 38s)

And you see it in like cement factory.

(1h 26m 41s)

But not too many Game and Watch games incorporate resource management.

(1h 26m 46s)

So that was like a big thing as well.

(1h 26m 48s)

collecting the food from the bugs that you shred.

(1h 26m 49s) Kevin :

because yeah the bugs yeah well I mean the resource management in gaming watches

(1h 26m 57s) Liam:

So, go ahead.

(1h 27m 1s) Kevin :

stress that’s what it really is magic is stress yeah yep yep

(1h 27m 3s) Liam:

Right, yeah, just increasing speed, yeah.

(1h 27m 7s)

It was fun to like thread the needle

(1h 27m 9s)

of like the normal stress of game and watch games,

(1h 27m 12s)

but also like manage your resources.

(1h 27m 16s)

for anyone who hasn’t played it, you.

(1h 27m 19s)

the enemies approaching your plants in order to collect food for your plants, you basically feed the plants, the guts of your enemies.

(1h 27m 28s)

And by feeding the plants, they grow and you can pick them for additional points.

(1h 27m 37s)

It’s a really fun little balancing act. If you carry too much food, your character slows down, and you need to either feed it to your plants, or you need to dump it all on their own.

(1h 27m 48s)

and just throw away all the food you’ve collected, just to get your speed back.

(1h 27m 53s) Kevin :

Well, that’s what I refer to as the coward button.

(1h 27m 56s) Liam:

Yeah, well, ideally, ideally you never press it. Ideally, you feed every food as soon as you possibly can, but it’s easier said than done sometimes, right?

(1h 28m) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(1h 28m 4s)

Yeah, no, no.

(1h 28m 5s) Liam:

Like, it’s…

(1h 28m 7s) Kevin :

I say people know I’m a hard-nose for, it’s hard challenges or what.

(1h 28m 12s)

That’s what I say.

(1h 28m 13s)

But no, it’s appreciated that you have an option to just drop it because, you know, that’s a good idea.

(1h 28m 19s) Liam:

• Yeah, I try to never use it as well.

(1h 28m 21s)

And I really kind of like the purity of it

(1h 28m 23s)

just being like a D-pad.

(1h 28m 25s)

But early on, I was like, I need to have this option

(1h 28m 29s)

‘cause it’s too abrasive when your movement gets slowed down.

(1h 28m 32s)

It’s too abrasive to not have the choice or anything.

(1h 28m 36s)

So yeah, so that was like what the initial design idea was.

(1h 28m 42s)

It’s just I wanted to add some resource management

(1h 28m 44s)

and I wanted to have like, you know,

(1h 28m 47s)

like accommodate for enemies being able to.

(1h 28m 49s)

So that led to the enemies also sort of making a mess on your screen with how they run at different speeds and stuff like that, which is tougher on the old game and watch games because you have to like the whole game’s logic has to move in steps.

(1h 29m 9s)

So you could have an enemy who moved every one step and then an enemy who moved every two steps, but they’re still fundamentally moving at pretty similar, you know,

(1h 29m 18s) Kevin :

Yeah, there’s a tempo right?

(1h 29m 19s) Liam:

there’s a very rigid tempo and this says a much looser tempo, which I thought was fun.

(1h 29m 26s) Kevin :

It is I think that

(1h 29m 26s) Liam:

And once I decided to thank you, once I decided to elaborate it out to like a fuller game, the the guiding light was like, okay, what if Nintendo made Game and Watch Gallery 5 for the Nintendo Switch at the time?

(1h 29m 43s)

What would what would that look like in my mind? And a part of that process was like…

(1h 29m 49s)

just thinking about it from their perspective. So there’s some stuff that like didn’t make the cut for me. Like I think nowadays it would be 3D art Nintendo does use a lot of 3D art mostly, so it’d be 3D which is fine.

(1h 29m 59s) Kevin :

Oh yeah. Yeah. The… (laughs)

(1h 30m 2s) Liam:

But that was something that right away I was like, I can’t afford to do that. That’s not happening. So my buddy did the art with me and he did an amazing job, but neither of us could do 3D stuff.

(1h 30m 14s)

that that that wasn’t on the table, but the main thing for me was like if

(1h 30m 19s)

one thing they would almost certainly add is like a bunch of to do for

(1h 30m 27s)

each of the games because you know you go back to the Game Boy ones and even

(1h 30m 32s)

Game Boy Advance one, Game Watch Gallery 4 and like fundamentally like the

(1h 30m 37s)

thing to do is get high scores in each game and that’s it and that’s great

(1h 30m 41s)

you can sync a lot of hours on that if you’re into it but if you’re not the

(1h 30m 45s)

type of user who enjoys that experience, if you’re more of a type of

(1h 30m 49s)

user who likes to make permanent progress or unlock things or work their way through something.

(1h 30m 55s)

The Game and Watch gallery games and Game and Watch games, indeed, I think are probably quite

(1h 31m 1s)

unsatisfying for you. And so I felt like Nintendo would probably do that. They would

(1h 31m 8s)

probably make an effort to make each game have a variety of things to do. So that turned into

(1h 31m 17s)

things to unlock and

(1h 31m 20s)

sort of mission types there’s so so the game that I made Garden Guardian it has that endless mode which is like the classic experience and

(1h 31m 29s)

then it has

(1h 31m 31s)

the trials mode where you have

(1h 31m 34s)

Six sets of three levels

(1h 31m 36s)

increasing in difficulty and varying and objective and

(1h 31m 41s)

My feeling was like you know when intent it if Nintendo made a game watch gallery five

(1h 31m 45s)

Obviously, they’re gonna have like a bunch of games

(1h 31m 47s)

I only had the…

(1h 31m 49s)

band with to make one realistically, you know, and designing this was definitely tricky,

(1h 31m 56s)

because the Game & Watch design space has been so thoroughly explored.

(1h 32m 1s)

So I kept it to just making one game and elaborating it as much as I could for what was realistic.

(1h 32m 8s)

And I feel satisfied with how it came out.

(1h 32m 12s)

Even me, personally, starting from a new save, it takes me like…

(1h 32m 19s)

an hour and a half to two hours to, like, unlock and do everything.

(1h 32m 24s)

Except for, like, one thing that’s, like, tied to play time that requires two hours of play time.

(1h 32m 30s)

It still takes a reasonable amount of time to do it all.

(1h 32m 34s)

So I’m very satisfied with where it came out, because I was somewhat concerned.

(1h 32m 38s)

I wouldn’t be able to get this thing the last half an hour.

(1h 32m 43s)

But, you know, it lasts, and it’s good, and I’ve played an in order to…

(1h 32m 49s)

I still play it regularly. Like, I really enjoy playing it on my switch light on the train.

(1h 32m 56s)

And I love seeing the scores on Steam.

(1h 33m)

Like, there are a couple people who still play it.

(1h 33m 3s)

There are some people who have psychotic scores, and I love it.

(1h 33m 8s)

Some people have posted scores.

(1h 33m 11s)

I think someone has over 9,000 points in one of the mode, which is crazy.

(1h 33m 15s) Kevin :

Oh my goodness.

(1h 33m 16s) Liam:

I don’t think I’ve ever posted a score.

(1h 33m 19s)

like 3,000, and that already was a slog. It takes a long time even to get to that song anyway.

(1h 33m 25s) Kevin :

Yeah, oh my gosh

(1h 33m 27s) Liam:

Thank you for letting me rattle off about the inception of the game, but…

(1h 33m 29s) Kevin :

No, no the good stuff that’s what I want to hear about

(1h 33m 34s)

So so I want to share some my thoughts from you know the other side the consumer the player

(1h 33m 42s)

so

(1h 33m 45s)

For such a small game, there’s there’s a lot to unpack because you know, it’s just the one-game plate

(1h 33m 51s)

mechanic loop, but it’s so well designed and satisfying.

(1h 33m 55s)

I have it tired of it, and like on this show, we review a lot of games that we very quickly can tell this isn’t going to last long. We’re not enjoying this, et cetera, et cetera.

(1h 34m 10s)

And because again, game development is hard and there’s so many different bits and pieces that can go wrong or or be weak in one area, sometimes a game can be really good and still have one big flaw, but the other areas are good enough.

(1h 34m 25s)

and so on, but this game like it’s it’s such tight package like it runs well it plays well like and again, maybe that’s my similar bias of having played the game and watch kids games and I was younger, but you presented the unlockables with the art, the trial missions to set, you know, clear objectives, I think all that plays really really well.

(1h 34m 55s)

and it’s it’s such an easy game to pick up and just play for a little bit to you know, we get a tight score try to be to mission or whatnot.

(1h 35m 5s)

So it’s really well done and you had enough sense to bring other people on board, you didn’t do the the concern day thing solo, diving massive game.

(1h 35m 16s) Liam:

hahaha

(1h 35m 18s)

Yeah, I mean yeah, I needed help

(1h 35m 19s) Kevin :

and and.

(1h 35m 25s)

and I think the folks who pitched in all that a great job the the visual presentation, which is such a strong element or such a deciding element for so many games, especially feels like on this show the cottage course space.

(1h 35m 42s)

I mentioned a bit earlier when I talked about like it you you frame it in this huge protecting your little garden trying to grow fruits and you’re killing bugs to to let it you know.

(1h 35m 55s)

grow and pick up fruits and and that I you hit the you head out of the park with that that cozy feeling of tending to your garden and you know just protecting it it’s it’s almost relaxing despite the stress or speed that you know that some of the levels can get to and whatnot.

(1h 36m 17s)

But it’s a lot of those game in launch games were actually put this oftentimes felt very.

(1h 36m 25s)

And it’s a very divorced from the suppose it scenario you’re in right like game in watch parachuting I don’t I don’t know why he’s parachuting you I’m just pushing.

(1h 36m 29s) Liam:

Oh sure, yeah. Yeah, you’re not wrong about that.

(1h 36m 33s)

Parachute is weird, isn’t it? Yeah.

(1h 36m 37s) Kevin :

Yeah, I’m just moving the the controls whatever I’m just I just want the the points I know what it’s supposed to do, but here you you really feel the like it’s living up to the name garden guardian and a lot of that charm is also carried by the the our our.

(1h 36m 52s)

um snippy shear every the last

(1h 36m 53s) Liam:

Snippy, yeah. Snippy shrubs. Snippy shrubs, yeah.

(1h 36m 55s) Kevin :

nappy snippy yeah yeah that’s what it

(1h 36m 59s)

um whoever is that your designer is that one of your friend or the other people

(1h 37m 3s)

worked on it um because that that’s an A plus did

(1h 37m 7s) Liam:

So, yeah, so the accreditation, my friend Phil,

(1h 37m 13s)

he, Phil Dragash, you can find him anywhere.

(1h 37m 16s)

He did all of the, like, art for the game

(1h 37m 22s)

with very few exceptions.

(1h 37m 24s) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(1h 37m 24s) Liam:

So the menu art, I did 100% of the menu art,

(1h 37m 29s) Kevin :

It shows which I say lovingly

(1h 37m 29s) Liam:

but, thank you.

(1h 37m 34s)

I did the menu art, but heated 100%.

(1h 37m 37s)

He did 99%. I had one friend come in to, there’s an unlockable classic UI layout that makes it look like an older game and watch title.

(1h 37m 45s) Kevin :

Oh, that’s cute, I haven’t gotten that much.

(1h 37m 46s) Liam:

I had a friend who did the classic UI thing, but other than that, Phil did all the art, and he did the design.

(1h 37m 54s)

We worked very closely on the design, though. I was literally watching him draw, so it was a very collaborative process.

(1h 37m 58s) Kevin :

Yeah. Nice.

(1h 38m 3s)

Well, what a very great design Snippy is a fun, I believe,

(1h 38m 8s)

is that the correct term for a little goat girl, I think, is that what she is.

(1h 38m 10s) Liam:

um she so like right like a fawn is like that greek uh like myth thing right uh and in our so we

(1h 38m 18s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(1h 38m 20s) Liam:

didn’t really like define it hard the guiding light for me was like this was supposed to take

(1h 38m 26s)

place i’m like a savanna so she was supposed to be like a gazelle girl so yeah yeah yeah you’re not the

(1h 38m 27s) Kevin :

Yeah. Oh, that’s why her horns are kind

(1h 38m 32s)

in that shape. I see it now. I was okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(1h 38m 35s)

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think

(1h 38m 36s) Liam:

first person to say fawn cuz like it the game never lays it

(1h 38m 40s)

out, and it’s not like a million percent clear enough, but that’s also why the her appearance

(1h 38m 46s)

like her her coloration varies a little bit. Yeah, uh, that’s

(1h 38m 50s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, I get that makes a lot of sense now and I think some of the the artworks that you unlock or you know, you get a better view of her

(1h 38m 58s)

I think it really feels

(1h 39m)

You see the idea of like you know, go person or whatever more but now you say in poly. Yeah, I totally see it because the the horns are

(1h 39m 8s)

Are very much indicative that I get it and and you get the little ants fighting them off in the Savannah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense

(1h 39m 11s) Liam:

• Yeah, yeah.

(1h 39m 15s)

Yeah, the, I’m glad you spoke about the gallery

(1h 39m 20s)

getting you a better look, ‘cause I’m very,

(1h 39m 22s)

very happy with how the gallery turned out

(1h 39m 25s) Kevin :

The gallery is so good

(1h 39m 25s) Liam:

in terms of content.

(1h 39m 28s)

The, yeah.

(1h 39m 30s) Kevin :

Yeah, I mean for it so for people who will hopefully play like he

(1h 39m 34s)

It’s the gallery’s you’re more or less reward system as you clear objectives and you know

(1h 39m 40s)

Is that trophies you get little artworks and you get a little comment from snippy on them and oh, it’s it’s so cute

(1h 39m 46s)

It’s great. I adore it. Some of the artworks are very very cute very fun

(1h 39m 51s)

I like the one where she’s sharing the cake.

(1h 39m 55s)

or whatever the ants and the bugs. That’s a fun one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, okay.

(1h 39m 57s) Liam:

Yeah, the first anniversary art, I think, was what that one was.

(1h 40m 3s)

Yeah, the art gallery, it’s presented with these drapes on the side, and the way Snippy gets up to explain stuff when you prompt her.

(1h 40m 13s)

It was very inspired by Game of Launch Gallery, Mario walking between stuff and the gallery aesthetic.

(1h 40m 23s)

So I’m very happy with how that turned out.

(1h 40m 26s) Kevin :

It’s great.

(1h 40m 27s) Liam:

Only regret with the gallery is I think I would have liked a menu like a grid or something instead of having to just scroll through them all, but that’s a small potatoes. Honestly, I’m very otherwise very happy with it.

(1h 40m 37s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean like for switch. I think it is

(1h 40m 44s) Liam:

I think so too. And one thing that I’m really happy about with the gallery is like Phil and I are great friends and we became friends through, like, Broadway.

(1h 40m 57s)

And he was a fan of our old YouTube channel, but we really became friends working on projects and like, he, when he throws himself into a project, he gets so into it and like, a lot of the illustrations in Garden Guardian are just concept pieces. But there’s a bunch of them where Phil would, I just be the weekend and Phil would send me a picture of Snippy that he drew. And he’s like, what do you think? And I’m like, this is cute. And he’s like, yeah.

(1h 41m 25s)

Anyway, we just ended

(1h 41m 26s) Kevin :

It’s a literally just fan art in the game.

(1h 41m 27s) Liam:

up with a bunch of the art, there’s a bunch of art that has different looking styles,

(1h 41m 36s)

and it’s all fill, actually they all have credits attached, then you can see who drew

(1h 41m 41s)

what.

(1h 41m 42s)

Yeah, he drew snippy and a bunch of different styles and presentations just for fun.

(1h 41m 47s) Kevin :

Yeah, I was wondering if that was one person or not, I didn’t pay attention to that, that’s impressive.

(1h 41m 53s) Liam:

So most of it is.

(1h 41m 56s)

is a set there’s a

(1h 41m 57s)

a bunch of art I don’t know I want to say like less than 10 pieces that are like guest pieces so a couple of my friends I commission them to draw a piece of art for the game just to like so I could have a bit more stuff in the gallery.

(1h 42m 14s)

And it’s one artist I follow who I thought suited it and then there’s a selection of art that is fan art that after the fact.

(1h 42m 22s) Kevin :

Oh, that’s so cool!

(1h 42m 23s) Liam:

There’s not a lot of it because it was not a super duper popular game sadly.

(1h 42m 28s)

One of them in particular that I thought was so cool. This is guy on twitter.

(1h 42m 34s)

I won’t say his username in case he doesn’t want me to put it out there, though he has credited in the game with it.

(1h 42m 40s)

He made a 3D model of one of the enemies in the game with a little animation.

(1h 42m 44s) Kevin :

Wow.

(1h 42m 45s) Liam:

And when I decided, like, oh, I want to put some fan art in the game, I worked with him to get it in the game.

(1h 42m 52s)

So in the gallery, the initial silhouette looks like every other thing where it’s just

(1h 42m 57s) Kevin :

I haven’t seen that. That’s so cool.

(1h 42m 57s) Liam:

a silhouette, but when you unlock it, it’s actually a 3D model that rotates and animates,

(1h 43m 2s)

and I made a whole 3D model viewer just for that one piece of art, which was really way too

(1h 43m 9s)

much work for what it was, but I’m so satisfied with the result when I look back at it.

(1h 43m 16s) Kevin :

You know, that’s so cool.

(1h 43m 16s) Liam:

So I’m rambling here, but I’m really glad you thought the gallery was neat because it was

(1h 43m 21s) Kevin :

Oh, it’s fantastic.

(1h 43m 24s) Liam:

really nice.

(1h 43m 25s)

those features that I look at, like when I’m working.

(1h 43m 27s)

I’m working on newer projects and I’m like, how do I ever make something feel that lovely again, you know?

(1h 43m 32s) Kevin :

well okay well first I want to go back to snippy for a second hats off to Elle’s

(1h 43m 34s) Liam:

Yeah, anyway, yeah, please, yeah.

(1h 43m 40s) Kevin :

Elle’s Beth he spent it if I’ve grown that correctly fantastic add addition to the

(1h 43m 42s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah.

(1h 43m 46s) Kevin :

voice to making it charming very very critical

(1h 43m 49s) Liam:

She crushed it, like, I had, so I’ve known Elspeth for years before that because she did, like,

(1h 43m 57s)

like, voice acting and streaming and stuff, and I had listened to, I had worked with her a little on a project before where she actually did some music for me.

(1h 44m 8s)

That’s not really something she does, she like stopped doing it, like, during after that project because it wasn’t really vibing with her as, like, a thing to do.

(1h 44m 16s)

But, like, I continued to be friends with her and I had heard her, like, voice reels and stuff.

(1h 44m 21s)

And when we were designing this character, I was like, who could do this sort of, like, nasally high?

(1h 44m 27s)

Perky, like, happy character, and she came to mind, plucky, right? That’s the word, plucky.

(1h 44m 31s) Kevin :

Flucky

(1h 44m 34s)

Yeah, as people on this show. No, yeah, she did as people on this show

(1h 44m 35s) Liam:

See you next time.

(1h 44m 39s) Kevin :

No, I am a big fan of

(1h 44m 41s)

Flucky protagonists like little girls. I don’t know why

(1h 44m 45s)

But just several games

(1h 44m 48s)

That’s sakuna

(1h 44m 50s)

There’s a game called Mika and the witches mountains, but anyways, but yes, I’ll fuck it

(1h 44m 50s) Liam:

• Mm-hmm.

(1h 44m 54s)

• Mm-hmm.

(1h 44m 55s)

She crushed it.

(1h 44m 56s)

She, like, I sort of said,

(1h 44m 58s)

I like this clip in your voice reel.

(1h 45m)

Can we get something like this and this and this?

(1h 45m 3s)

And like, I had like no notes.

(1h 45m 6s)

Like she came back with like the test audio,

(1h 45m 7s) Kevin :

It’s done.

(1h 45m 9s) Liam:

and it sounded just like the snippet you hear in the game.

(1h 45m 12s)

And she just, she just like hit it out of the park

(1h 45m 15s)

on the first go.

(1h 45m 15s)

And I was like, oh, wow, okay.

(1h 45m 16s)

Well, that certainly went well.

(1h 45m 20s)

She made it easy and she was yeah, that was really good. I was very glad to finally get to work with her on something and like bring that through to the end

(1h 45m 23s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 45m 33s) Liam:

She adds I think

(1h 45m 35s)

one of the big successes from my perspective is that I feel like snippy’s personality really like permeates every area of the game from like gameplay to gallery

(1h 45m 46s)

and Elspith all the little voice clips of which there aren’t

(1h 45m 50s)

as many as you might think, they really punctuate it so well. I was really happy.

(1h 45m 54s) Kevin :

They do I fully fully agree, and nominal phenomenal work

(1h 46m 4s)

So yeah, I mean like I

(1h 46m 7s)

Again, it’s kind of a oh, you know, here’s here’s here’s the thing

(1h 46m 11s)

I thought I mean, it’s small and scale perhaps a game

(1h 46m 15s)

We could say although I spent a lot of time playing it and I have a tired of it, which is quite testament to your work

(1h 46m 21s)

but

(1h 46m 24s)

the one criticism I would have and this is a loving criticism I’ve had for many games what more

(1h 46m 27s) Liam:

Mm-hmm

(1h 46m 32s) Kevin :

Have you ever had thought of you know and and you know that that’s

(1h 46m 32s) Liam:

Yeah, yeah

(1h 46m 37s) Kevin :

More trials more enemy types or maybe another game and watch have you given thought to

(1h 46m 43s)

Either adding more here or sequel

(1h 46m 44s) Liam:

• Yes, yeah.

(1h 46m 46s)

• Well, I’m incredibly flattered that you liked it,

(1h 46m 49s)

and I’m glad that there are dozens of people

(1h 46m 54s)

like you out there who really enjoyed it a lot,

(1h 46m 58s)

‘cause I like it so much,

(1h 47m 1s)

and I was so worried when I put it out

(1h 47m 4s)

that nobody’s gonna give a shit about this game,

(1h 47m 6s)

and I’m glad it did reach a couple freaks out there.

(1h 47m 12s)

So in regards to like, more.

(1h 47m 14s)

Uh, yes, and I’m like super down to talk about it, uh, some stuff, very much scuttled, but other stuff. Yeah. So like more for this game.

(1h 47m 26s)

Um, the, there was, there were two other enemy types.

(1h 47m 31s)

Um, one of which got cut early for good reason and one of which I regret and I would have liked to feature it.

(1h 47m 38s)

Uh, but it would have been a lot of works. The first one was a projectile enemy who came onto the screen and shot a projectile.

(1h 47m 44s)

Uh, towards down the lane. And the problem was, although like, although that would be kind of like visually different, like, it was a little unclear how snipy was supposed to interact with them.

(1h 47m 58s)

Uh, in the first place. Um, yeah, so that was kind of an early idea that kind of went nowhere. It was just a little different and I was, I was trying to figure it out, but like, it, and it wasn’t meaningfully different.

(1h 47m 59s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah, that’s my first thought. Like, “How’s that going to be going to guard against this?”

(1h 48m 14s) Liam:

So it was still something just coming down the lane, right? So, uh, so that one got cut early. Um, and that was actually like part of the process of like, coming up with the enemies was realizing that like, although not having the limitations of game and watch is super real, like the, the game’s design is very limiting in terms of like what you can do with enemies. You know, like they, all they can really do is like walk forward and they have to,

(1h 48m 44s)

again, eventually get to snippy so she can engage them because she has like, you know, she can’t move off of her place base. Um, so like, you know, the standard move forward, they like pause, then move forward really fast. And then the bruiser enemy who you have to deal with twice ended up being like the ones that stood tall as like, really understandable, functional things. And it became really, it became evident really quick that like it was going to be very difficult.

(1h 49m 14s)

To design another enemy that stood up to these three. So the projectile one was the one that I took the most seriously otherwise and after scuttling that, I was like, you know what, threes a nice round number. I’ll just, I’m just going to move on from enemies because those guys are good and they make a good team. They feel good next to each other, I think. Um, the fifth enemy, the one that I regret, sorry, I just bumped my desk. Um, the one that I regret,

(1h 49m 44s)

but like, it would have taken a lot more work is I really wanted to have like a boss monster that would occupy the left side of the screen and. Yeah, I would have liked to have that an oversized boss monster that fills the left side of the screen that use, I’m not a hundred percent sure, but uses appendages or something to attack lanes in a variety of ways and patterns. Um, and that one would

(1h 49m 51s) Kevin :

That feels like a natural progression.

(1h 50m 14s) Liam:

involve like more involved patterns. So it would like do all the lanes from like top to bottom or bottom to top and you’d have to like keep up with it, you know, or it would do, you know, anyway, different patterns that you’d have to like respond to properly. And after you did, after you were able to respond effectively enough, you would get an opportunity to do like a finishing move like out of like revengeions where she’d like leap across the screen and like slice it. Um, I

(1h 50m 44s)

really wanted to do something like that, but it was hard. It like, okay, it would have been a lot of art for Phil, which, you know, Phil, Phil also wasn’t working for free and he was, you know, we, we work together very well and money is not an issue between us, but like, you know, I needed to be cognizant of like this game’s no budget because it was all out of my pocket. Right. Um, but even just doing a basic version of it would have been a lot and.

(1h 50m 58s) Kevin :

Yeah, yeah, yeah, should have just done like a three frame judgment cut.

(1h 51m 14s) Liam:

Like I, for better and for worse, like I, I really am a bit of a perfectionist and often that is for the worse, but in, you know, in this game’s finished state, I’m sure you can see that everything is quite polished and getting that enemy to a, a level of polish where it would, it would really, um, stand tall as like a fun, cool boss enemy. Uh, would have been tough. And the other thing was like, does this 100%

(1h 51m 44s)

suit snippy, this big leap across the screen, final attack, kind maybe. But it was it was

(1h 51m 52s)

something that I would have had to massage and like work on a little bit to try to get it to like

(1h 51m 57s)

you know fit as far as the like narrative design of the world goes. It was like a little too

(1h 52m 3s)

actiony and so for all of those reasons it ended up not happening. Mostly for budgetary and work

(1h 52m 12s)

reasons. I also did all the animation.

(1h 52m 14s) Kevin :

door right my the I agree fully you know

(1h 52m 14s) Liam:

for the game. And that was a lot as well. So I do feel that the roster is really strong. The three enemies complement each other really well.

(1h 52m 25s)

But yeah. As far as making more trials and stuff, it’s something I’ve thought about like going back to Garden Guardian and adding more content to it.

(1h 52m 38s)

But I’m in, to be honest, I’m in like a tough spot with Garden Guardian because there’s some stuff I want.

(1h 52m 44s)

I want to add to it. I would really, above all, want to add other languages to it. It’s only in English right now.

(1h 52m 52s)

And like, so like, I regularly meet people in Japan and they’re like, oh, I want to play your game. It’s on the switch, right?

(1h 53m)

And it’s like, oh, yes, but you can’t buy it on the Japanese shop. I routinely meet people who, like, I have to say, yeah, you got to get it on Steam and it’s only going to be in English.

(1h 53m 5s) Kevin :

Nah

(1h 53m 14s) Liam:

I’m bilingual, right? Like, I’m French, I’m from Quebec. And so that was always something I was cognizant of. But like, when the game was originally made as this smaller project, I didn’t put all the hooks in for language stuff.

(1h 53m 28s)

And like, I tried to assess that before the last major update and it was overwhelming to put them in retro, spectra retroactively. So.

(1h 53m 38s) Kevin :

No, how can it be just copying the code

(1h 53m 41s)

and based it in the Google Translate.

(1h 53m 43s)

Boom, done, right?

(1h 53m 44s) Liam:

Yeah, no, definitely the text is the smaller problem. But like, for example, the, all the nice menu buttons, they have like text that animates on them. And like, that wouldn’t fit all the other languages, for example. So there was, there’s a variety of like challenges there. And anyway, when I was assessing this stuff, I was like, discussing with like a close friend of mine. He helped me publish this on Switch. It’s published under his company on Switch, actually.

(1h 53m 53s) Kevin :

Yeah

(1h 54m 14s) Liam:

And, you know, he gave me a bit of advice that I think is true, but it’s like a painful bit of advice. And he’s like, this game isn’t selling at some point you have to move on. Like, at some point. Like, adding more, like he’s like, I totally respect and love how much you want to keep adding to this game. But like, it’s a lot of work for you. And like, it’s very minimal return. And actually, like, I’m not sure

(1h 54m 44s)

try to get into this, but like, I’m very glad the game did break even. And like, it broke even. That’s, yeah, a lot of people don’t get that. You know, so, but the budget wasn’t high. It was like $3,500 Canadian dollars out of my pocket. And that was like with friend rates and stuff. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I think all said,

(1h 54m 51s) Kevin :

Oh, bro, even honestly, I think that’s impressive. I like it. It’s yeah, yeah

(1h 55m 2s)

Yeah

(1h 55m 14s) Liam:

I’m incredibly proud of this game. And I love it. And I still play it personally because everybody on the project gets residuals because that’s how I set it up. Personally, I’ve only probably grossed made like $6 or $700 Canadian dollars on it. And yeah, every time, every time someone buys the game of the money that, you know, gets through payment.

(1h 55m 17s) Kevin :

• You should be, it’s fantastic.

(1h 55m 24s)

Yay!

(1h 55m 32s)

Well, listeners, the onus is now on you.

(1h 55m 44s) Liam:

processors and Steam or Nintendo. 40% of it goes to me. 40% of it goes to Phil who did all the art.

(1h 55m 53s)

And the other, the remaining 20% is split with all of the people who worked on the game.

(1h 56m 1s)

Which has not been much for them. Sadly, I’m sure you can work those figures backwards and see that

(1h 56m 7s)

they’ve made very little in residual. They did get paid upfront just to be clear. But yeah,

(1h 56m 11s) Kevin :

Yeah, sure sure sure.

(1h 56m 12s) Liam:

the residuals have not been as good as I ever thought.

(1h 56m 14s)

But I believe in that.

(1h 56m 16s)

I believe that everyone who works on something should have equity in it.

(1h 56m 21s) Kevin :

Yeah, good on you boy. What a concept.

(1h 56m 21s) Liam:

So, yeah, yeah, I know.

(1h 56m 25s)

We also, I shouldn’t brag about this.

(1h 56m 29s)

I shouldn’t, but I will.

(1h 56m 31s) Kevin :

You know, you probably should actually

(1h 56m 31s) Liam:

We also like, well no, that’s a specific thing.

(1h 56m 35s)

We also like donate a bit of money to planting trees with every game.

(1h 56m 38s) Kevin :

Add there you go

(1h 56m 40s) Liam:

Like, I shouldn’t brag about that because it’s not.

(1h 56m 42s) Kevin :

No

(1h 56m 45s) Liam:

point. I feel so icky even bringing it up like that. But yeah, it is cool. I’m proud

(1h 56m 46s) Kevin :

I

(1h 56m 47s)

I get what you mean, okay, you know, I find all bragging and selling for you. I get what you mean, but that ain’t no, so that’s good

(1h 56m 54s)

That’s good. That’s good cool

(1h 56m 57s) Liam:

that we’re doing that. And I more than anything, I hope other developers will see that

(1h 57m 3s)

we do that. And think, oh, hey, we can afford to donate, you know, a little bit off every

(1h 57m 8s)

sale. That was how I got it. I saw another developer doing that. And I was like, hey, yeah,

(1h 57m 13s)

That’s not going to break the banks.

(1h 57m 15s)

For me, you know, but like the economics have been rough.

(1h 57m 22s) Kevin :

well. Yeah.

(1h 57m 22s) Liam:

Game sells for $5, right?

(1h 57m 24s)

So 30% of that goes to steamer Nintendo.

(1h 57m 27s)

So you’re down to 350 left.

(1h 57m 31s)

And then there’s usually some little other fees like payment process, well steam handles

(1h 57m 36s)

payment process.

(1h 57m 37s)

There’s other stuff anyway.

(1h 57m 39s)

So you get like maybe 3 30 per unit when it’s not on sale.

(1h 57m 45s)

I get 40% of that.

(1h 57m 48s)

So like per unit, I’m seeing less than $2, you know, like it’s, yeah, gosh, yeah, she’s quite

(1h 57m 49s) Kevin :

Okay, so start doing the math on to see how much Liam needs. How many copies needs to be sold for Liam to get the Kawasaki Amiibo?

(1h 58m 1s) Liam:

a few, um, 6600 yen.

(1h 58m 4s)

So like less than $2 a piece, but you’d still need to sell, yeah, like 30 to 40, maybe 40 copies

(1h 58m 12s)

to be safe.

(1h 58m 15s)

Yeah, it’s the economics of rough.

(1h 58m 18s)

And that was a really interesting and tough experience for me.

(1h 58m 22s)

When the game launched, it was actually four US dollars.

(1h 58m 25s)

It was cheaper because I had done a survey with a bunch of people,

(1h 58m 30s)

a bunch of students in my program and new students in the program,

(1h 58m 35s)

where they like did a play test and I got a bunch of great feedback.

(1h 58m 38s)

And I also surveyed on price and like the price survey was really depressing.

(1h 58m 43s)

cuz like I

(1h 58m 45s)

I was surprised that people were like yeah, I’d pay like two dollars for this. I’d pay like I

(1h 58m 51s)

Was like two dollars you guys are in this game design program really and that’s and

(1h 58m 56s) Kevin :

Let’s go! (laughs)

(1h 58m 57s) Liam:

So I you know, I priced it at four which I felt

(1h 59m)

Like I I wanted it to be around like four five six dollars in the first place cuz I I

(1h 59m 6s) Kevin :

you know

(1h 59m 6s) Liam:

Like the idea of making art that everyone can enjoy

(1h 59m 10s) Kevin :

Sure, well, I mean

(1h 59m 11s) Liam:

But I think I actually still went to.

(1h 59m 15s)

love because that bit me in the ass, you know, it was like at the time I was making even even less and I’ve raised it to five when the switch version came out and also on PC after that, but even that has unfortunate knock on effect. Sorry, you were about to say something.

(1h 59m 20s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah. Bye. Yeah.

(1h 59m 36s)

No, I just like from again from my perspective consumer gamer perspective

(1h 59m 44s)

Like I will say when you’re under tent like ten and under becomes a very like I think it’s very easy to scale like

(1h 59m 55s)

You know from

(1h 59m 57s)

Not paying four dollars for a game. I have no problem paying five dollars. I can like never think of a situation where I wouldn’t want that

(2h 4s)

Um and even

(2h 6s)

going up to ten right like if it’s maybe for nine for sure if you’re single digits you’re fine I think but um so that’s just some food for thought but I get it like it’s it’s tough that’s that’s a whole you know the economic part of it racing and all that.

(2h 23s) Liam:

Mm-hmm, I definitely think overall I went too low and like I don’t think I can do that again

(2h 24s) Kevin :

So yeah I think you could have done higher. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

(2h 30s) Liam:

Yeah, I think so too. I’m not planning to change garden guardians price at this point

(2h 37s)

But like yeah, it is what it is

(2h 40s)

The other thing the really bad knock-on effect is like when you price that low like when you’re at five dollars

(2h 47s)

Like imagine how the economics get when you want to put the game on sale

(2h 51s)

you want to put that game half

(2h 51s) Kevin :

Yeah

(2h 54s) Liam:

off not even making a dollar per unit, so some developers have the strategy of pricing

(2h 1m 1s)

a little higher than they like and counting on the sales to get them.

(2h 1m 6s)

What they actually want, and I get it.

(2h 1m 10s) Kevin :

• Yeah, now I get, I think so too.

(2h 1m 11s) Liam:

I definitely think that the next game whenever I’ve managed to finish another game, I’d still like to price under $10

(2h 1m 20s)

bearing in mind, the scope.

(2h 1m 23s)

But I don’t think I can go that low again, like I think that was a mistake.

(2h 1m 27s)

I was a very well-intentioned mistake, but it bit me in the ass a little bit harder.

(2h 1m 36s) Kevin :

• Well, I mean, as an engineer,

(2h 1m 38s)

we have the Agile,

(2h 1m 42s)

that edge of fail faster,

(2h 1m 44s)

not that I’m saying this was a failure,

(2h 1m 46s) Liam:

Yeah.

(2h 1m 46s) Kevin :

but learn from your mistakes.

(2h 1m 47s)

You get better, you improve, right?

(2h 1m 49s)

So, I’ll go, yeah, yep, yep.

(2h 1m 50s) Liam:

Yeah, absolutely.

(2h 1m 51s)

And this is just another one of those learning experiences, you know,

(2h 1m 57s)

to continue on your question from before, if you’re still interested, um,

(2h 2m 2s) Kevin :

Yes. Yes. Yes.

(2h 2m 3s) Liam:

about making other game and watch games or what have you, right?

(2h 2m 6s)

So the, there’s like two that I have in mind.

(2h 2m 12s)

um the one that I wanted to make and

(2h 2m 16s)

kind of wanted to wanted to make it right after but it proved to be not the right project to work on at the time was I wanted to make a follow-up game to garden guardian that is like a companion piece to it that would have been like very similar so like like similar menus I would have reused a lot but it would have been it would have starred

(2h 2m 39s)

snippy’s girlfriend who has only mentioned a couple times in the art gallery snippy’s girlfriend

(2h 2m 46s)

and is intended to be an albino lioness and she has a she has a big mane and she is a chef and she so it would have been a cooking themed one instead of gardening and all of her cuisine is made using like the fruits that snippy grows and stuff like that

(2h 2m 50s) Kevin :

Ooh, I like that.

(2h 3m)

[music playing]

(2h 3m 13s)

Oh, that’s so good.

(2h 3m 14s) Liam:

Um,

(2h 3m 15s) Kevin :

Spanding the snippy cinematic universe here. I love it.

(2h 3m 16s) Liam:

So the two games were, yeah.

(2h 3m 20s)

Yeah, the two games were kind of meant to go together, and I didn’t really

(2h 3m 24s)

envision anything beyond that really.

(2h 3m 26s)

Um, but I wanted to do that and I worked on it a little bit,

(2h 3m 31s)

but I was so burnt out on Garden Guardian at the, like at the time.

(2h 3m 36s)

Like I had, I had worked on it.

(2h 3m 38s)

It took about, it took a bit over a year to get the game out, uh,

(2h 3m 42s)

which is crazy for a game of that scope,

(2h 3m 44s)

But I worked my ass off to go.

(2h 3m 46s)

to get it to like the level of polish that it’s at.

(2h 3m 46s) Kevin :

• Yeah, that’s about to say, that’s crazy.

(2h 3m 48s) Liam:

It’s very polished though, and that took a lot out of me,

(2h 3m 53s)

especially the menus was tough.

(2h 3m 55s)

But arguably, I spent too much time on the game.

(2h 3m 59s)

But that’s besides the point, which

(2h 4m)

is that I was a little burnt out on that style of game.

(2h 4m 3s) Kevin :

Sure, sure.

(2h 4m 4s)

Sure, sure.

(2h 4m 4s) Liam:

And the idea of plunging back into this code base

(2h 4m 8s) Kevin :

Muh-huh.

(2h 4m 8s) Liam:

to make a direct follow-up was tough.

(2h 4m 10s)

And I also hit some early design roadblocks.

(2h 4m 16s)

In the process of making a game-and-watch game around cooking,

(2h 4m 20s)

that really holds up.

(2h 4m 23s)

So that’s still something that I have that pin on the wall

(2h 4m 28s)

metaphorically.

(2h 4m 29s) Kevin :

• Okay.

(2h 4m 29s) Liam:

And I’d be interested to get around to that at some point.

(2h 4m 30s) Kevin :

• Right.

(2h 4m 35s) Liam:

The other thing that I would like to make at some point

(2h 4m 38s)

is as far as game-and-watch games go.

(2h 4m 43s)

I would like to make like literally another go at go.

(2h 4m 47s)

I don’t know if I would call it garden guardian to but like garden guardian ex or whatever.

(2h 4m 53s)

I would really like to do that game.

(2h 4m 53s) Kevin :

It’s glam. It’s right there. It’s guarding Guardians. Snippys cut.

(2h 4m 56s) Liam:

What is it?

(2h 4m 59s)

Snippy’s cut.

(2h 5m 1s)

So, so like I guess what I shouldn’t be so mysterious.

(2h 5m 5s)

I guess what I mean about not making it a two is like I want to.

(2h 5m 9s)

I don’t want it to just be like a direct like sequel kind of.

(2h 5m 14s)

I want it to like take

(2h 5m 16s)

a different tack kind of. I have some out there thoughts for it.

(2h 5m 21s) Kevin :

Are you saying this is a garden guardian remake, but with the capital like in final fantasy remake

(2h 5m 29s) Liam:

Yeah, like a like a gritty reboot kind of vibe kind of jokey vibe. No

(2h 5m 35s)

No, I have various thoughts on it

(2h 5m 37s)

I’ve thought about just like a straight garden guardian - as well

(2h 5m 40s)

But I really if I could do it - I would really want to like get 3D art in there so I could do a lot more

(2h 5m 47s)

With the animation side of things

(2h 5m 50s)

That’s a limitation for me, right? Like if I

(2h 5m 54s)

Want to put something in the game. I need to work with Phil to make 2D art

(2h 5m 59s)

And then animate it but like there’s only so much I can do with the 2D art that’s provided, right?

(2h 6m 4s)

I

(2h 6m 5s)

If I got a nice 3D model of snippy if Phil helped me design it and then I could work with a 3D artist to get a nice 3D model of snippy

(2h 6m 12s)

I would have a lot more latitude to put a lot more animation and stuff into the game

(2h 6m 16s)

So so I if I made like a sequel I would want to like have 3D art and try to push things a lot more

(2h 6m 25s)

Yeah

(2h 6m 27s)

So those are my thoughts for like

(2h 6m 29s)

future game and watch games. I’m not presently working on a game and watch style game. I’m working on something different, but

(2h 6m 33s) Kevin :

Well, that’s the next follow-up question. What are you working on? What is cooking?

(2h 6m 38s) Liam:

I’m working on something a little different right now. I’m sure you’ve

(2h 6m 43s)

Some people have noticed that garden garden garden was quite a while ago. It’s a couple years ago now granted that switch version took an extra

(2h 6m 50s)

While to materialize so it’s not like I stopped working on garden garden after the launch date

(2h 6m 56s)

Um, I’ve, like, worked on a lot.

(2h 6m 59s)

a lot of projects over the last few years and, like, I’ve had a lot of, um, you’ve heard

(2h 7m 5s)

of the idea of, like, post-launch depression with, like, games for game developers, you might

(2h 7m 10s) Kevin :

I’m sure right right yeah

(2h 7m 11s) Liam:

have, anyway.

(2h 7m 12s)

But, like, I had a lot of that.

(2h 7m 14s)

Garden Guardians launch did not go as well as I hoped, like, uh, I hoped.

(2h 7m 21s)

I had hoped I would be able to move a thousand units in the first month, was the thought.

(2h 7m 27s)

it only moves.

(2h 7m 29s)

and then on switch, I was like, okay, 300 in the first month, and it sold like almost 200.

(2h 7m 40s)

And so like, I went through a lot of sort of like, I was pretty depressed about the results.

(2h 7m 46s)

Even though I broke even, which was nice, and people pretty much, everyone who, well, everyone

(2h 7m 51s)

who reviewed the game seemed to like it quite a bit, and I got very few refunds on Steam.

(2h 7m 56s)

like I think Jen…

(2h 7m 59s)

I didn’t really pause it if I was towards the game, but the main thing was like most of the vibes were just nothing. Like most people weren’t playing it, you know, like even a lot of close friends of mine. I don’t begrudge them, but like didn’t play the game, didn’t touch the game. You know, like I felt like I didn’t make something exciting enough that even people close to, you know, necessarily liked it. Only people who were real freaks for Game and Watch, so it was…

(2h 8m 15s) Kevin :

Sure sure

(2h 8m 21s)

Yeah, right

(2h 8m 27s) Liam:

It was challenging cuz I was really happy I really

(2h 8m 29s)

reached people, but I was also really sad because there were people I wanted to reach that I didn’t.

(2h 8m 36s)

And after, you know, spending so much time and money and energy on it, it was really hard that most of the user response was just silence.

(2h 8m 47s)

And then there was a small amount of like extreme happiness, which I’m so grateful for cuz like it really made all the difference.

(2h 8m 52s) Kevin :

• Yeah.

(2h 8m 55s) Liam:

And there was very, very little negative, so I was very pleased with

(2h 8m 59s)

that, but as a result, I know I’m kind of like taking a little while to get to the answer here.

(2h 9m 6s)

I worked on a lot of projects over the past few years that started and stopped

(2h 9m 11s)

and haven’t meaningfully gotten off the ground. Now that I’ve made a game,

(2h 9m 16s)

I understand how much work it takes to get it for nothing to game

(2h 9m 22s)

and then from game to the standard that I want to hit, where it’s very, very polished

(2h 9m 29s)

fun. So I am currently working on a project that I feel really good about.

(2h 9m 37s)

It’s a very simple action game where it’s kind of inspired by like NES titles,

(2h 9m 44s)

like single screen action NES titles, where you will control a character

(2h 9m 50s)

who has a variety of objectives within a stage. And there’s a gimmick,

(2h 9m 54s)

There’s a gimmick. I don’t want to give away the gimmick sadly, which is like the core thing so I

(2h 9m 58s) Kevin :

sure sure sure

(2h 9m 59s) Liam:

think I have, I think I have very little to actually say, but it’s supposed to take place in a darker world, not as much like levity and lightheartedness, something a little more like something a little more like Baroque or shadow tower that is supposed to be like a world of violent, and so that’s what I’m plugging away at now, this mysterious world of violent pixies.

(2h 10m 29s)

Um, so I don’t know.

(2h 10m 30s)

think Shin Megami Tensei, Killer 7, or what would the other hang on? I have a list of

(2h 10m 34s) Kevin :

Oh snap.

(2h 10m 39s) Liam:

Shin Megami Tensei, Killer 7, Discroom, if you know that indie game, and I can’t believe I’m

(2h 10m 49s)

not remembering this list of all things, Bangayo, definitely Bangayo, and also the

(2h 10m 55s)

achievement grid from Kirby Air Ride. Specifically, specific

(2h 10m 59s) Kevin :

of course. Yeah. Yeah. The single I, you know what the single one is. I think I agree

(2h 11m) Liam:

the one from the first game, because I really like the one, the single grid. As opposed to the…

(2h 11m 10s) Kevin :

with you there. Like, yeah. It’s just the stringliness. Like, it’s a V-go, right? Yeah.

(2h 11m 11s) Liam:

Something about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, if you’ve never played the indie game

(2h 11m 23s)

disc room, I highly recommend that, because that’s like, that game sometimes feels like what if we took the

(2h 11m 29s)

achievement grid and

(2h 11m 30s)

from Kirby Air Ride and we made it a level selector. It’s pretty cool. So anyway, I’m working on

(2h 11m 36s) Kevin :

All that sounds red. No?

(2h 11m 37s) Liam:

that and I’m really sorry I don’t have more to divulge but like it’s actually really early in

(2h 11m 44s)

development and I only even spoke to Phil about it for the very first time yesterday. So like…

(2h 11m 52s) Kevin :

Oh, oh dang that is really early. Okay, I mean, hey, sure sure sure sure. Well, I mean, at least I’m I’m certainly waiting for it to be to pray through your next entry because I mean guarding Guardian has clearly shown you

(2h 11m 54s) Liam:

It’s really it’s really… I’ve been working on it for a couple weeks but like it’s really early

(2h 12m 1s)

I’m positive so I don’t want to make any promises but I’m trying to make this.

(2h 12m 17s) Kevin :

and put a lot of care and effort and polish into your game,

(2h 12m 22s)

and just hearing about the struggle with financial success and whatnot.

(2h 12m 27s) Liam:

I’m really happy you felt that way because I definitely think that’s true, but yeah, yeah.

(2h 12m 39s) Kevin :

It’s so hard because it’s certainly not our reflection on you.

(2h 12m 44s)

You know, that’s a whole other world of PR marketing sticking out and, you know, the games.

(2h 12m 52s)

It’s a tough crowd right now. We’d say that because I mean even here just in the cottage course space, like the number of games coming out is just ballooning and how do you stand out? It’s really, really tough. Mm-hmm. Now.

(2h 13m 5s) Liam:

It’s wild. It’s wild. Everyone says this, so it’s not like it’s like a crazy observation,

(2h 13m 13s)

but you can’t slack on the marketing at the end. You can’t assume that you have a certain amount

(2h 13m 21s)

of Twitter followers or whatever that’s just going to work out. I don’t want to say that that’s what I

(2h 13m 25s) Kevin :

Yeah. Yeah.

(2h 13m 27s) Liam:

did, assuming that just because I had Twitter followers that would work out. But like I did so much

(2h 13m 35s)

on that project, like relatively solo. It was not a solo project. I think most solo projects are

(2h 13m 39s) Kevin :

Yeah, right, right.

(2h 13m 41s) Liam:

not actually solo projects, to be honest, but hot take. But you know, I did most of it, like 90% on my own.

(2h 13m 45s) Kevin :

Ooh.

(2h 13m 50s)

It’s short, isn’t it?

(2h 13m 51s) Liam:

And by the time I got to release the idea of like running an extended campaign was not, I mean,

(2h 13m 59s)

it was not appealing. And like, the plan became, okay, I’m going to announce, and it’s going to

(2h 14m 6s)

two weeks after. And I thought if I do it so tight, like maybe I’ll be able to. I didn’t need this game

(2h 14m 13s)

to sell 10,000 units. I didn’t need this game to sell, you know, but I just need to, you know,

(2h 14m 18s)

drum up the slightest amount of excitement for it. And I didn’t, my two-week campaign did not

(2h 14m 23s)

go as well as I’d hoped in any way. I like did not, I was like, I’ll edit the trailer myself.

(2h 14m 29s)

I shouldn’t have done that. At the end of the project, I was so done. And the budget was so

(2h 14m 35s)

which was tough. So like hiring someone to do a good trailer, even among the people I know that would have been,

(2h 14m 41s)

you know, I should have done it in retrospect. But it was, I didn’t have the energy left to succeed

(2h 14m 46s) Kevin :

off.

(2h 14m 48s) Liam:

at this, that marketing this game. And I think that bit me in the ass. So hopefully next time,

(2h 14m 53s)

I’ll have more for some. Can I, yeah, can I share an amusing anecdote about Garden Guardian?

(2h 14m 55s) Kevin :

learned and might play all means. Yep, go for it.

(2h 15m 2s) Liam:

Cutting a trailer for Garden Guardian was a pain in the app.

(2h 15m 5s)

And I was so exhausted by all the circumstances.

(2h 15m 11s) Kevin :

Heh heh heh heh

(2h 15m 15s)

Yeah, yeah

(2h 15m 23s) Liam:

That’s why the trailer came out so, so slap-dash, honestly, because I don’t really want to do this.

(2h 15m 32s)

But I got to do it and I’ll do my best.

(2h 15m 35s)

This massive problem and I was like, okay, and I ended up like basically phoning it in, which is so unfortunate, because I didn’t phone anything in for the actual game itself.

(2h 15m 44s) Kevin :

Uh-huh, right. It’s clearly in hot.

(2h 15m 47s) Liam:

Yeah, but…

(2h 15m 47s) Kevin :

Well, look, me can still fix this.

(2h 15m 51s)

Soaksong is still hot. Reach out to Team Cherry. Get the colab going, re-skin the bugs.

(2h 15m 58s) Liam:

God.

(2h 15m 58s) Kevin :

Boom.

(2h 15m 59s) Liam:

Hollow Knight, Hollow Knight Edition, Garden Guardian Hollow Knight Edition.

(2h 16m 1s) Kevin :

There you go.

(2h 16m 3s)

Yeah, there you go.

(2h 16m 3s) Liam:

Man, I, yeah.

(2h 16m 5s)

That’s so funny.

(2h 16m 7s)

I, I, I thought about like adding hats to the game at one point. Team Fortress 2 changed the game.

(2h 16m 15s)

But hats never happened, but that would have included hats for the bugs, of course, so.

(2h 16m 20s) Kevin :

Oh

(2h 16m 22s) Liam:

One problem I ran into when I was adding features post-launch, because I added quite a few.

(2h 16m 28s)

Was that like adding stuff to the menus was too labor intensive, because the menus are pretty nice.

(2h 16m 35s)

So I was like, oh, I can’t add a new button to the main menu, huh? Like, that’s actually like removing a button and replacing it with a different shaped one and adding a new one next to it.

(2h 16m 46s)

That’s actually too much work, huh? Like, I can’t realistically do that, and I, I myself a little bit in that regard, which is why the extra’s menu has totally uniform buttons, because it became, it was the only place where I could like, put stuff in.

(2h 17m) Kevin :

Mm-hmm

(2h 17m 4s)

Score

(2h 17m 5s) Liam:

The first game I ever made a menu for, by the way. And that, I think, shows in my mistakes. I did a good job, I think, but my mistakes are definitely ever.

(2h 17m 8s) Kevin :

Sure, well, I mean you still killed it

(2h 17m 14s)

You did

(2h 17m 17s)

Well, just call up either the the people does the menu for persona games or or soccerize wife take your pick

(2h 17m 23s) Liam:

Yeah. I’ll call Ms. Sakurai, I’ve got, if only, if only, if only, if only. I’m happy with how

(2h 17m 30s)

it turned out. And genuinely, I did not expect to get to talk about it so much tonight, and I’m

(2h 17m 36s)

really grateful that you wanted to, because I always feel like I have a lot to say about it, and I’m

(2h 17m 43s)

very proud of it, and it’s nice to speak about it.

(2h 17m 45s) Kevin :

as as you should be like it’s so I should I put this like again it’s it’s game and watch

(2h 17m 54s)

s games so a little smaller in scale than say full farming game but I can’t stress enough like

(2h 18m)

how you can feel the polishing quality on this game right um and it just when because we look at

(2h 18m 8s)

a lot of games on the show and so it’s it’s tough I get I don’t mean to throw shade on anyone

(2h 18m 15s)

I think you you you set a high bar for what you put out

(2h 18m 21s) Liam:

Thank you. I’m I’m really glad you think so and I’m I to be honest. I’m terrified of that bar

(2h 18m 29s) Kevin :

mmm yeah oh yeah yeah I get that I get that

(2h 18m 30s) Liam:

It’s a

(2h 18m 32s)

It’s a

(2h 18m 35s)

It’s a problem now. It’s like I spent spent such a long time to put the bar so high and now I have to do better with less money

(2h 18m 44s) Kevin :

Yeah.

(2h 18m 44s)

[chuckling]

(2h 18m 46s) Liam:

Oh, no

(2h 18m 48s) Kevin :

All up the Hollow Knight people.

(2h 18m 51s) Liam:

Call up the hall on at your right, you’re right, but no, well, thank you. I’m really glad. It’s very flattering to hear

(2h 18m 56s) Kevin :

It’s literally a pair of guys.

(2h 18m 59s) Liam:

literally right

(2h 19m 1s)

But I’m I’m so glad that you enjoyed the game. I’m so glad that there are dozens of people out there who did

(2h 19m 8s) Kevin :

And hey, well, like listeners, all seriousness, like I suggest you check it out.

(2h 19m 10s) Liam:

There’s dozens

(2h 19m 15s) Kevin :

It’s an easy buy and an easy recommend you’ll get enjoyment out of this game, I guarantee.

(2h 19m 21s) Liam:

Thank you.

(2h 19m 22s)

You know, I really didn’t have the impression we were going to talk about Garden Guardian

(2h 19m 26s)

all that much tonight, so I’m just very flattered by the whole thing.

(2h 19m 27s) Kevin :

Oh, I mean, like, oh yeah, no, that was more or less the point of my duty to our cottage

(2h 19m 34s)

core nature and I always find it fascinating.

(2h 19m 38s)

What are you going to talk to developers in the whole creative process.

Outro

(2h 19m 43s) Kevin :

All right, but that said, though, is there anything else you’d like to plug to add to say to our audience, where to find you, not to find you, find other things, whatever you want to say.

(2h 19m 52s) Liam:

Hmm. Well, the main plug, the most important plug is always garden garden for sure. I was actually,

(2h 19m 56s) Kevin :

the absolutely on switch and steam

(2h 19m 57s) Liam:

I did actually have that in mind, but that’s on, that’s on Switch and Steam. It’s also on itch.io,

(2h 20m 4s)

but like, buy it wherever you like the best. Um, the, yeah, um, Steam version has great Steam deck support.

(2h 20m 13s)

Switch version just kicks ass. I, I did the port myself actually. I’m really proud of it. It came out really well.

(2h 20m 15s) Kevin :

It’s great, ooh what you should be because that’s always well in this space that’s always that’s often a problem to switch forward

(2h 20m 26s) Liam:

It’s not a given, eh? Like, you know, you do need to opt even even a game like Garden Guardian there were some optimizations. I had to make

(2h 20m 34s)

uh, and I I used to had the opportunity to work on some Vita games in the past that never never shipped sadly

(2h 20m 40s) Kevin :

that’s the go home on that’s our goal when do we get guarding Guardian on the

(2h 20m 41s) Liam:

uh, but I

(2h 20m 46s)

Garden Guardian on the Vita man. It was one of those things I wanted to do, but it wasn’t realistic. So, you know

(2h 20m 46s) Kevin :

Vita

(2h 20m 53s) Liam:

Um, but anyway, I did.

(2h 20m 56s)

Optimization stuff back then. So I’m thankful I did.

(2h 20m 59s)

Uh, other than that, um, I occasionally write on a little blog, you can find at rising superblog, which is rising super dot blog is the website.

(2h 21m 12s)

I’m currently writing a, uh, I write basically reviews, but they don’t have scores on them.

(2h 21m 19s)

Uh, I guess that still counts as review. I did two with scores, because when you get a key from someone, they kind of expect

(2h 21m 26s)

I’m currently writing an article on the recently released fire emblem shadows, the, uh, mobile social deduction game, which I’ve enjoyed quite a bit in spite of its problems that are maybe only evident to people who play it for longer than, you know, one match in this game sucks.

(2h 21m 35s) Kevin :

[laughs]

(2h 21m 46s)

[Laughter]

(2h 21m 46s) Liam:

Uh, other than that, I mean, I have a near dead YouTube channel called rising super stream.

(2h 21m 54s)

Uh, I really only…

(2h 21m 56s)

do, like, reaction videos to, like, Nintendo Directs and, uh, recently some Kirby-Air Ride videos.

(2h 22m 4s)

And you can find me on Twitter and Blue Sky at Liam Allen Miller.

(2h 22m 4s) Kevin :

Hey, keep that going. That’s so hot.

(2h 22m 9s) Liam:

So…

(2h 22m 10s)

Yeah.

(2h 22m 11s)

That’s me.

(2h 22m 12s)

Garden Guardian’s the number one thing.

(2h 22m 14s)

Um, and if…

(2h 22m 16s)

If you enjoy it, if you enjoy anything I ever made, I will feel very flattered.

(2h 22m 20s)

Cause I’m…

(2h 22m 21s)

I feel like I’m just…

(2h 22m 22s)

I feel like I’ve just had, um…

(2h 22m 26s)

been so lucky to be able to entertain people.

(2h 22m 32s) Kevin :

All right, well, thank you so much, Liam for coming on and chatting to the point where I’m clearly losing my books.

(2h 22m 40s) Liam:

That’s no problem. Oh no.

(2h 22m 41s) Kevin :

Um, that that is irrelevant to this conversation. I’ve been sick and I think it’s hitting me right now, but, um, that it’s fine. It’s my, um,

(2h 22m 51s)

but I, this is a fantastic chat. You heard of folks go, go, finally a mallet Miller up in, in the tweeters and the blue sky. Go check out guarding Guardian more than anything. I cannot.

(2h 23m 2s)

I would recommend enough. Um, and since presumably this is and the episode, uh, unless all you’re going to cut it out, I don’t know, but, uh, until next time listeners have a good harvest.

(2h 23m 15s) Theme Tune:

The Harvest Season is created by Alma Henry, with support from our patrons, including our

(2h 23m 25s)

pro farmers, Kevin Stewart, Analisa.

(2h 23m 29s)

Our art is done by Micah the Brave, and our music is done by Nick Brutus.

(2h 23m 34s)

Feel free to visit our website, harvestseason.club for show notes and links to things we

(2h 23m 39s)

discussed in this episode.

(2h 23m 49s) Kevin :

So, one of the things on this podcast, we do a site show called The Green House where we talk about non-cottage court, whatever, just anything we want.

(2h 23m 56s) Liam:

Is there such a thing? Is there such a thing outside of cottagecore?

(2h 24m 2s) Kevin :

So, what?

(2h 24m 6s) Liam:

Other media out there in the world is the listeners of this podcast having their innocent ears exposed to

(2h 24m 8s) Kevin :

Well, look, sometimes it’s Eurovision, there’s annual Eurovision episodes.

(2h 24m 13s) Liam:

a lot? Right, right.

(2h 24m 19s) Kevin :

One of my favorite episodes of The Green House was one of the co-hosts, his name is Johnny.

(2h 24m 28s)

He’s a lot more pragmatic and maybe cynical, I guess, about things. He’s a little harsher on judging media.

(2h 24m 38s)

So, like Sonic games, he’s fairly harsh on. So, one of my favorite episodes of The Green House was just going down the list of Sonic characters introducing him to the art.

(2h 24m 49s)

and having him rate the characters without knowing who they were really.

(2h 24m 52s) Liam:

Mmm, that’s a good little premise.

(2h 24m 55s) Kevin :

Yeah, that was a fun time. We both at least agreed cream and cheese were like, you know, S5 star tier. So, I felt good about that.

(2h 25m 3s) Liam:

Yeah, those hold up

(2h 25m 6s) Kevin :

Okay. Anyway, so, I brought that up because we go through long session sometimes when we’ll do an episode and then a greenhouse and they’ll take a break. But so, it’s totally fine.

(2h 25m 17s)

Okay, but let’s

(2h 25m 19s)

let’s get back to it.

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